Henry VIII, eh? What a bastard.

[TunipTheVegemal]

I just feel there should be an ongoing thread on what a vile piece of work Henry VIII was where people can leave their opinions on the complete and utter appallingness of Henry VIII.

Of course, this being Mumsnet someone will probably come along and say IABVU and he was actually very nice.

(What sparked this off, btw, was me discovering that the Pilgrimage of Grace marched past where my house is, having mustered troops a mile away. Now every time I have to go into the garden at night I will imagine rotting corpses swinging from the trees - he had some of the rebels hanged in their own back gardens and some women got into trouble for cutting down their husband's bodies when they were supposed to leave them there to rot as a warning. What a bastard.)

[HillaryFTW]

Nearly finished the book;

[BoopTheSnoot]

Just read through this whole thread. Loved it.

[EvenTheWind]

Have now re read from the beginning

The early post about Anne Boleyn being a whore, a schemer etc - interesting how Jane Seymour never got this reputation, though she employed the same "my virtue!" Tactics and the wife she displaced was judicially murdered rather than moved to a series of decreasingly grand houses...

[Trills]

I thank you for reviving this thread if only for reminding me of

"X, for example, is a twat"

[EvenTheWind]

[EvenTheWind]

Lucy Worsley is currently presenting a programme on the six wives on BBC one, available on iplayer

[Trills]

She is indeed

Bit more unnecessary reenactment than I need, but seems good so far.

[EvenTheWind]

She's having a ball though, which is lovely to watch!

I didn't think That Bastard Henry had split up Anne Boleyn and Percy though, that was surely a lot earlier.

[Trills]

Oh yes Lucy herself is clearly having a fucking fantastic time, and good on her!

[FrancesNiadova]

Henry viii; syphillitic wife-murderer.
I do wonder about some sort of mental health problem, we know that physically, he wasn't a well man. It's interesting that Bloody Mary showed similar traits...the Apple didn't fall far from the tree.

[KatieScarlett]

It was fun re-reading this. Can't believe we are still waiting on the sequel to Bring up the Bodies. Hope Hillary is ok.

[MummyH1206]

Henry was a fine king until he didn't get the son he needed. Anne was a clever women to draw his eye and keep him without sleeping with him for so long. This did darken everyone's view of him who loved Katherine she really was the people's queen.
I think if Anne had given him a son the world would see him in a very different light. But she didn't and I think he would have divorced her too if those that weren't against her (there were lots) hadn't given him the grounds for trumped up charges of adultery as it's easier to kill her off. You then have to factor in jousting injury which resulted in ulcer which never healed, very painful leading to agitation, but also he was unconscious for hours which could have resulted in brain damaged which forever changed his temprement.
I think this led to him getting easily bored and agitated with wives and advisors making him into the bastard we remember not the most handsome young prince of Christendom that he was. He was also very unfortunate with next few wives Jane died (although pretty sure he would have divorced her too if she didn't give him son). Ann of cleves not to his taste (however by now 50 odd and very likely impotent) and Catherine Howard young and abuse by men throughout her life didn't stand a chance. Katherine parr almost lost her head too.
Unfortunately at that time a long needed a son and that was that and Henry went about getting it only way he could not defending him but I think jousting injury contributed a lot to his decision making and impotent for a lot of his life made him into the monster we remember when it could have been so different.

[cooltalkineverlivin]

Why was Henry Vlll thought handsome in his time? Piggy little eyes, moon face, little itsy mouth, and fine calves are for the farmyard.

I also think he was a Grade A shit for all the reason pp have said above. The women who went to bed with him must have been made of very strong stuff indeed.

[MummyH1206]

He was what was attractive at the time especially the calves.
I think some were made of strong stuff and chose to be with him to get some power etc Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. Others had no choice and were unfortunate and had to try and make most of it which didn't end well for most.

[HelenDenver]

Cool

He came to the throne at 17 or so, didn't he? 20-odd years of tall, sporty, powerfulness. Seems reasonable as a base for attractiveness.

Lucy W has a new series in a couple of weeks

[HelenDenver]

Three part series about Lady Jane Grey on iplayer at present.

That Edward VI, eh? What a bastard (to his, err, 'bastard' sisters)...

[Snowdrop18]

"Piggy little eyes, moon face"

I thought Henry wasn't moon faced till he was older?

I do find it odd that in history lessons it was never really said that he was such an extraordinarily evil git....Richard III on the other hand was presented as an evil git immediately. Well, at my school anyway!

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Why was Henry Vlll thought handsome in his time? Piggy little eyes, moon face, little itsy mouth, and fine calves are for the farmyard

Because before he was a piggy eyed and moon faced he was a 6 foot two muscly blond.

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

That Edward VI, eh? What a bastard (to his, err, 'bastard' sisters)...

Yeah, what a cunt trying to protect his people from the murder and torture he knew Mary would bring with the counter reformation. What a wanker.

You do realise Jane Grey was actually the rightful Queen right?

[hollyisalovelyname]

Why was Jane Grey the rightful queen?

Why was Henry so hung up on having a son ?
After all Elizabeth 1 ruled just fine ( as long as you weren't Catholic or Irish or both ).
And she didn't seem hung up on getting an heir or spare.

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Why was Henry so hung up on having a son ?

Because the only female ruler there had ever been before was Empress Matilda. And she and King Stephen sent England into a huge spiral of chaos.

And legally Jane was Queen anyway.

[hollyisalovelyname]

Why was Jane the rightful Queen?

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Jane was the rightful Queen because Edward VI created the ‘devise for the succession’ which made her his legal heir.

This superseded the Third Succession Act of Henry VIII which returned Mary and Elizabeth to the succession. The third succession act set aside normal rules of succession to return Mary and Elizabeth to the succession even though they remained officially illegitimate and therefore should not normally have been entitled to succeed (neither of them were ever officially made legitimate by him).

If you accept that Henry’s 3rd succession act returning Mary and Elizabeth to the succession was legitimate, then you also have to accept that Edward VI was also legally entitled to name his successor - and he named Jane.

Aside from that, Jane was legally the person who was normally entitled to be next in line to the throne. Mary and Elizabeth were both legally illegitimate so had no normal right to be considered in the line of succession. As Edward had no legitimate siblings, the line of succession went back to the siblings of Henry VIII. His elder sister Margaret had been struck out of the succession when she married the King of Scotland and given up her succession rights, and also been struck out of succession by both Henry VIII and Edward VI. So then succession went by the line of his other sister, Princess Mary, who was by this time dead. Her daughter, Frances Grey, was actually entitled to be Queen, but gave up her rights in favour of her daughter Jane (which she was entitled to do).

People might feel that morally Mary I was entitled to be Queen, but at the time, legally, she had absolutely no legitimate claim at all. She was an usurper. Jane Grey was the rightful Queen.

Edward named her as his heir, superseding any rights Henry VIII had given Mary. And even if you ignore the right of Kings to name their successors; Jane was still the rightful Queen because she was the next in line due to succession not recognising illegitimate children - which Mary and Elizabeth legally were.

It’s absolutely impossible to argue that Jane wasn’t the rightful Queen - she was the legal and rightful Queen by any formula.

People tend to assume that she wasn’t the rightful Queen because Mary I successfully deposed her. But Jane was the rightful Queen.

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

There’s an article from the Boleyn Files which explains it here using Eric Ives book on Jane Grey as reference:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theanneboleynfiles.com/lady-jane-grey-queen-mary-usurper/amp/

Eric Ives is basically THE authority on the Tudors and knows his shit. And he says Jane was the rightful Queen.

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

(Sorry for taking two months to give you an answer).