Henry VIII, eh? What a bastard.

[TunipTheVegemal]

I just feel there should be an ongoing thread on what a vile piece of work Henry VIII was where people can leave their opinions on the complete and utter appallingness of Henry VIII.

Of course, this being Mumsnet someone will probably come along and say IABVU and he was actually very nice.

(What sparked this off, btw, was me discovering that the Pilgrimage of Grace marched past where my house is, having mustered troops a mile away. Now every time I have to go into the garden at night I will imagine rotting corpses swinging from the trees - he had some of the rebels hanged in their own back gardens and some women got into trouble for cutting down their husband's bodies when they were supposed to leave them there to rot as a warning. What a bastard.)

[HelenDenver]

@FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn

So glad to see this thread bumped, my aforementioned MIL sadly passed away in 2019 but it did bring a smile to my face to see me talking about her Tudor views upthread.

I'm a big fan of the You're Dead to Me podcast. In the early episode titled The Witch Craze, which had the wonderful Suzannah Lipscomb as the expert, they talked about the school of thought that the persecution of women via the witch trials was in part a patriarchal response to the fact that there had been two powerful female monarchs and that it was felt women were gaining too much power and needed to be put back in their box.

ooh how interesting!

[FrankellyMyDearIDontGiveADamn]

So glad to see this thread bumped, my aforementioned MIL sadly passed away in 2019 but it did bring a smile to my face to see me talking about her Tudor views upthread.

I'm a big fan of the You're Dead to Me podcast. In the early episode titled The Witch Craze, which had the wonderful Suzannah Lipscomb as the expert, they talked about the school of thought that the persecution of women via the witch trials was in part a patriarchal response to the fact that there had been two powerful female monarchs and that it was felt women were gaining too much power and needed to be put back in their box.

[HelenDenver]

Bumping That Bastard Henry VIII to alert to this Kindle book deal.

https://amzn.eu/d/eFLgVyn?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

[1982mommaof4]

@ItsMeYourCathy

I bloody love the Tudors. Me and DH got all involved in the tv series and I managed to organise about three school trips to the Tower. Gushed about it loads, eventually went with DH and they'd taken all Henry's part if the exhibition away for cleaning. How DH sulked!

Why have I never seen this?
Why didn't I know about history club?

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_royal_family/4638140-henry-viii-waste-of-space?page=9&reply=120353604

[TaxiforBourchier]

As a decendant of John Bourchier, He was The Elder Brother of Arthur, he was 14 years older than, HenryV111, and was his Tutor and mentor at Corpus Christie, ge spoke 6 languages, and was a better man, ge was the elder brother of Henry and Henry was told, after Arthur died, when Henry was 8 years old, that he would be made King. Henry cried his eyes out. John understood. Then, after Henry tried his patience. Henry was a pathetic man, he hung drew and quartetered monks, on the eve of his wedding to Anne Bolyen, who was 4 months pregnant. Then he crossed the line. Anne was Johns daughter, so was Mary. John was a gentleman. Fact. ipso factorum.

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Mary I wasn’t a bad person. But she was tainted by a religious mania inherited from her mother.

She and her mother were also incredibly attached to Catherine’s birth family and had a huge affection for them. Unfortunately this was an affection which was hugely exploited by Catherine’s nephew Charles V and later his son Philip II.

Much of the blood of Mary’s reign resulted from dictats from Spain. Including Jane Grey’s execution, which Mary was reluctant to do but Philip demanded.

Ironically, much of the success of Elizabeth’s reign came about because she learnt from her sisters mistakes and ruled pragmatically.

Although, it has to be said: Elizabeth was imprisoned during Mary’s reign and many people encouraged her to execute Elizabeth. Mary never did it. And she also accepted Elizabeth as her heir (although she did not name her).

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

(Sorry, that should say her father Ferdinand. He was her Dad, not her priest).

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Because the religious rules at the time treated people you’d had sex with as part of your family. So therefore your family could not marry them. So if Catherine had sex with Arthur, the rules at the time said that she then became Henry’s sister and it was illegal for Henry to marry her.

He actually had exactly the same problem with Anne Boleyn, because he’d previously had sex with Mary Boleyn, which made Anne his ‘sister’ that he could not marry. Before he broke from Rome, he was given a dispensation which allowed him (if his first marriage was dissolved) to marry a woman ‘related to him in the second degree of consanguinity’. Which means any woman whose sibling he had slept with.

He had a similar papal dispensation to marry Catherine of Aragon. But there was a rub in that dispensation. Catherine’s parents did not want it to be assumed she had sex with Arthur. So they demanded that the wording of the dispensation was changed from allowing her to marry if the marriage to Arthur had been consummated to saying the marriage had ‘perhaps’ been consummated.

This ambiguous wording, plus her Father Ferdinand’s failure to make a payment meant to ratify the dispensation (he was a notorious tightwad) gave Henry VIII the wiggle room to claim the dispensation was invalid, and his marriage to Catherine of Aragon was illegal.

It’s highly unlikely it was. As Catherine was deeply religious and swore many times at the risk of eternal damnation that the marriage had not been consummated. It’s very unlikely a woman as religious as her would have risked eternal damnation by lying.

But as far as the succession was concerned, her marriage was illegal and her daughter illegitimate. Jane was the rightful Queen.

[eloisesparkle]

Wasn't Arthur her first husband ?
So what was the problem ?

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

He got minions to do it. His first marriage was probably morally legitimate. Most historians think it’s unlikely the grounds for divorce (that she slept with his brother Arthur) actually happened. But that’s irrelevant, because it’s the official legal status that mattered - and that said Mary was illegitimate.

[eloisesparkle]

As Henry was the self appointed head of the church did he annul them himself or get a minion to do it?
If so, was his first marriage actually legitimate ?
Did he just change the rules to suit himself ?

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn’s marriages were both annulled, meaning that they were considered never to have happened in the first place, so their daughters were both legally illegitimate.

Interesting fact, his marriages to Anne of Cleves and Katherine Howard were also annulled. Legally, he was only actually married twice, to Jane Seymour and his last wife Catherine Parr. He would certainly only ever have considered that he had two wives, and if you’d asked him before he died how many wives he’d had, he would definitely have said two.

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

(Sorry for taking two months to give you an answer).

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

There’s an article from the Boleyn Files which explains it here using Eric Ives book on Jane Grey as reference:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theanneboleynfiles.com/lady-jane-grey-queen-mary-usurper/amp/

Eric Ives is basically THE authority on the Tudors and knows his shit. And he says Jane was the rightful Queen.

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Jane was the rightful Queen because Edward VI created the ‘devise for the succession’ which made her his legal heir.

This superseded the Third Succession Act of Henry VIII which returned Mary and Elizabeth to the succession. The third succession act set aside normal rules of succession to return Mary and Elizabeth to the succession even though they remained officially illegitimate and therefore should not normally have been entitled to succeed (neither of them were ever officially made legitimate by him).

If you accept that Henry’s 3rd succession act returning Mary and Elizabeth to the succession was legitimate, then you also have to accept that Edward VI was also legally entitled to name his successor - and he named Jane.

Aside from that, Jane was legally the person who was normally entitled to be next in line to the throne. Mary and Elizabeth were both legally illegitimate so had no normal right to be considered in the line of succession. As Edward had no legitimate siblings, the line of succession went back to the siblings of Henry VIII. His elder sister Margaret had been struck out of the succession when she married the King of Scotland and given up her succession rights, and also been struck out of succession by both Henry VIII and Edward VI. So then succession went by the line of his other sister, Princess Mary, who was by this time dead. Her daughter, Frances Grey, was actually entitled to be Queen, but gave up her rights in favour of her daughter Jane (which she was entitled to do).

People might feel that morally Mary I was entitled to be Queen, but at the time, legally, she had absolutely no legitimate claim at all. She was an usurper. Jane Grey was the rightful Queen.

Edward named her as his heir, superseding any rights Henry VIII had given Mary. And even if you ignore the right of Kings to name their successors; Jane was still the rightful Queen because she was the next in line due to succession not recognising illegitimate children - which Mary and Elizabeth legally were.

It’s absolutely impossible to argue that Jane wasn’t the rightful Queen - she was the legal and rightful Queen by any formula.

People tend to assume that she wasn’t the rightful Queen because Mary I successfully deposed her. But Jane was the rightful Queen.

[hollyisalovelyname]

Why was Jane the rightful Queen?

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Why was Henry so hung up on having a son ?

Because the only female ruler there had ever been before was Empress Matilda. And she and King Stephen sent England into a huge spiral of chaos.

And legally Jane was Queen anyway.

[hollyisalovelyname]

Why was Jane Grey the rightful queen?

Why was Henry so hung up on having a son ?
After all Elizabeth 1 ruled just fine ( as long as you weren't Catholic or Irish or both ).
And she didn't seem hung up on getting an heir or spare.

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

That Edward VI, eh? What a bastard (to his, err, 'bastard' sisters)...

Yeah, what a cunt trying to protect his people from the murder and torture he knew Mary would bring with the counter reformation. What a wanker.

You do realise Jane Grey was actually the rightful Queen right?

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Why was Henry Vlll thought handsome in his time? Piggy little eyes, moon face, little itsy mouth, and fine calves are for the farmyard

Because before he was a piggy eyed and moon faced he was a 6 foot two muscly blond.

[Snowdrop18]

"Piggy little eyes, moon face"

I thought Henry wasn't moon faced till he was older?

I do find it odd that in history lessons it was never really said that he was such an extraordinarily evil git....Richard III on the other hand was presented as an evil git immediately. Well, at my school anyway!

[HelenDenver]

Three part series about Lady Jane Grey on iplayer at present.

That Edward VI, eh? What a bastard (to his, err, 'bastard' sisters)...

[HelenDenver]

Cool

He came to the throne at 17 or so, didn't he? 20-odd years of tall, sporty, powerfulness. Seems reasonable as a base for attractiveness.

Lucy W has a new series in a couple of weeks

[MummyH1206]

He was what was attractive at the time especially the calves.
I think some were made of strong stuff and chose to be with him to get some power etc Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. Others had no choice and were unfortunate and had to try and make most of it which didn't end well for most.