Henry VIII, eh? What a bastard.

[TunipTheVegemal]

I just feel there should be an ongoing thread on what a vile piece of work Henry VIII was where people can leave their opinions on the complete and utter appallingness of Henry VIII.

Of course, this being Mumsnet someone will probably come along and say IABVU and he was actually very nice.

(What sparked this off, btw, was me discovering that the Pilgrimage of Grace marched past where my house is, having mustered troops a mile away. Now every time I have to go into the garden at night I will imagine rotting corpses swinging from the trees - he had some of the rebels hanged in their own back gardens and some women got into trouble for cutting down their husband's bodies when they were supposed to leave them there to rot as a warning. What a bastard.)

I mean she might have had a good idea that she couldn't have kids, not that this is known to have been the case. There were refs to her having irregular courses though.

She has plenty of offers, and was serious for some time about marrying Phillip II of Spain's cousin, but I cant remember his name.

They thought you were fertile during your period back then, my history teacher told us. Not that it changes how she would have reasoned, but it's interesting, isn't it?

vaga - was he the mad one with the huge chin? Not that that narrows it down .. Charles?

I think that is a very complex question annie.

My take is that it was partly because her experience of a Queen being married was not a positive one - her mother and stepmothers as Queen Consorts were (at best) cast off or (at worst) executed on the whim of a man; her sister as Queen Regnant had married a foreigner and that had not been popular, if she had married a commoner it would have caused jealousy, if she married at all there was no understanding of a man as a consort - religion taught that a wife was subservient to her husband and I think this was both personally distasteful to her and also politically an issue as whoever she married could seek to govern, she had a direct fear of having an heir of any kind on the basis when she had been the heir she had been the centre of plots and manouverings and so having an heir-apparent could have created an alternative faction, even if it was her child, childbirth was the most dangerous thing a woman faced and was a direct consequence of marriage.

Think the cousin was the Duke of Savoy. The mad one was Phillip II's son, Carlos.

Mary I marrying a foreigner is what finally got poor Lady Jane Grey executed wasn't it? Lady Jane was simply put in Tower by Mary originally but there was an uprising when Mary said she'd marry Philip and they rallied around saying they wanted Lady Jane on the throne instead of a spaniard. To avoid it happening again, Mary had to execute Lady Jane, poor girl who never even wanted to be queen,

The Tudors really didn't make good breeding stock did they ? Henry was surrounded by sycophants telling him he was right about everything. When he was young man he was a good looking swashbuckler with a clever woman behind him. Then he reached his midlife crisis, his wife was too old to have kids, it was unthinkable then that the man was the cause of no children. A ruling queen was also unthinkable. He needed a male heir (and a spare given their track record).

The were huge factions in the court - too many people with nothing to do but jockey for position. Must have been a bloody awful time to be an aristocratic woman.

That c19 portrait of her in National Gallery, though a little OTT, really moves me every time. She looks so young and helpless.

I thought he was bright! To stand up to the pope and create his own religion. Clearly not a shy retiring monarch.

What a great thread.

I think it must have been a massive dilemma for Elizabeth, and her advisers. On the one hand, the ruler is meant to have a flock of children to secure the succession. On the other hand, after years of instability, pregnancy and childbirth was a massive risk for her to take - on top of which any husband would be hugely controversial and affect her ability to govern effectively.

Given the likelihood of her infertility and/or dying in childbirth, I can see why she ultimately opted not to risk it.

She'd have lost her supremacy and royal authority ax soon as she married, simple as that IMHO.

I love that Elizabeth had James I on a retainer - she paid him to stay loyal and promised him the throne once she was dead. He totally went for it, despite the fact Elizabeth had his mother executed.

I know, Burlington, she was supremely cunning

That mary Queen of Scots was no better than she ought to be was she?

and she was meant to be a great beauty but I really don't rate her.

The only man Elizabeth would have married was Robert Dudley but after the convenient mysterious death of his wife she knew it could never happen.

I think if Edward had lived he would have married Jane grey.
Who knows they may even have been happy? They were both certainly staunch Protestants and had very lonely sad upbringings.
Mary queen if scots is a fascinating character...she was imprisoned by Elizabeth near where I live at chatsworth house.
In fact the earl of Shrewsbury was said to favour her a bit too much and he and his wife (bess of hardwick) basically separated because of her!

nan

the 'what-ifs' in history are endlessly fascinating. In the period I am most interested - the14th C - they abound.

I am a bit fan of the 12th century Salvo. Every time I talk about it my DH rolls his eyes.

Can we have some 14th Century what ifs, or should they be in their own thread?

I was Henrys nursemaid you know . He was quite a nice man..... he gave me Ice-cream, gin and chocolate. Strangely I had to provide my own Prince Edward.

Ooh Ruby you look Fab!