Uni is just over-sold and disappointing

[Greedybilly]

My lovely 19 year old has just finished Yr 1 of uni ( when did the courses end at Easter? What happened to term 3?)
She was unlucky with her flatmates who were awful to her and her course mates mostly commute.
Part time jobs are none existent and she's done umpteen trial cafe shifts only to be ghosted.
She had such high hopes and seems like a shadow of her former self. It does all feel like a massively over marketed business.
Anyone got any words of wisdom/happy endings??
Gutted for her and angry at all the hype and nonsense.

I could have said it was oversold and disappointing when I was there, 88-91, before student loans when tuition was free

I turned up for a lecture and the tutor had left a handwritten note on the lecture hall door "I will not be persecuted" and weeks later, he was found face down in the snow

total fucking waste of time, yeah? The man had tenure so it was hard to kick him out

I would like to challenge this statement about tuition fees not covering the cost of the education provided. I’m not picking on you specifically as it is commonly sited.

However, the rapid expansion of universities also led to a huge (& I really mean HUGE) expansion in buildings at universities, both undergraduate accommodation and lovely sexy new libraries/labs/lecture theatres etc etc, not all of which were strictly necessary. This was largely done by borrowing money by a very well paid management elite at the universities (not academics).

This real estate and the salaries of the management have to be paid for out of student fees and a haircut on research grants.

Refurbishment and maintenance of buildings is obviously necessary for delivering the student education. But this went way way beyond what was necessary and was largely done in a financially illiterate way - that was never going to be able to pay for itself without exponential growth in students numbers, regular increases in fees and especially growth in international students.

If student fees and research grants didn’t have to support this profligate spending (interest on borrowing), university finances and the student experience would be in a much more positive state.

It is very very sad to see Nottingham university for example threatening to cut its physics faculty by a third when this same physics faculty is rated 2nd in the U.K. for research and is world leading in a number of areas. This is solely down to the catastrophic decision of management to buy the HMRC building for £80mn which has had to be largely written off. It has nothing to do with undergraduate fees not covering the cost of their course.

How tuition fees are spent is obfuscated by universities and this folklore has built up that U.K. students are being unfairly subsidised. They really aren’t (although there is cross subsidy between subjects), universities have been very very badly financially managed.

Undergraduate fees of £10k are never going to be enough. It’s not enough to pay for independent school so it certainly isn’t enough to pay for a university education.

One of the biggest factors however is student services. The cost of support for students is out of control.

Home undergraduate fees haven’t gone up meaningfully in years, and that should be the bread and butter income.

Research income varies over the years, and may well be on a “cost-plus” basis ie it funds some lab space and salaries and materials for experiments but the margin to the university isn’t huge.

Have some unis made poor decisions on buildings? No doubt. Would the home undergraduate fee be enough if they hadn’t, given rising rents, utilities, NIC etc? I doubt it would.

And how a university scores in the national student survey is important to getting the bread and butter through the door. So buildings and careers services and housing advice all contribute to that.

There are a lot of complaints about lack of contact time on this thread. Contact time
for a large student body requires a large amount of physical space.

Private school fees pay for 35 hours of tuition per week in classes of sub 30, the university experience is nothing like that. And also schools have all the staff ratios and rules around safeguarding minors that universities with their older student population don’t have. State education costs around £8k per pupil per year so less than uni fees. I’m not sure what your point is? Schools and universities do very different things and have very very different cost models.

Costs in schools are much more tightly controlled than universities - either by parents directly paying fees or by central govt through school budgets. No school is able to go on the spending sprees that universities have done and then cut teaching hours to pay for it. Edinburgh university is currently failing to mark final year students assessments/exams which students need to progress to jobs or further education. No school would be allowed to stop students getting their GCSE or A levels marked. The management of the university sector is unaccountable and out of control - the overheads are far too high and are taking money from both the tuition fee and research budgets.

No school would be allowed to stop students getting their GCSE or A levels marked.

Only because we have exam boards for those. Striking teachers can decline to mark homework or set lessons, though.

But one of the jobs of uni staff is marking and one of the things that happens in a strike is people not doing their jobs (and not getting paid, of course), because that’s the point of a strike.

And that’s another reason why you can’t compare the fees of schools and the tuition fees paid to universities as a PP did.

I’m not suggesting that uni staff don’t have the right to strike. My point is the generally poor financial management of unis (which is what the Edinburgh staff are striking about as redundancies are threatened) which seems often to focus only on tuition fees.

@SheilaFentiman They didn’t have to expand though did they? Oxford didn’t. They just wanted more and more students because they don’t have a vast income from endowments. So overseas students became the jam on the bread and butter! If we had fewer students, maybe there could have been a better financial model but we were struggling financially once the post 92 unis came on stream. Unintended consequences! They have been the gift that’s kept giving in terms of good employment though. Just look at the growth over the last 35 years! Huge. All these highly paid VCs and management teams in 150 unis! It’s been a gravy train. Chickens and roost come to mind now!

This . A lot of students don’t realise they should be putting in the hours of a full time job. I remember my lecturer saying to see it as a 9-5 job , when you’re not in lectures / seminars / workshops / labs , you should be researching , reading etc it’s not like school where you’re drilled with information. Some degrees are quite rigid in basics that need to be learnt and tend to have higher hours but others are more open and it’s about learning and coming up with your own views etc
As parents we need to highlight all
this too and the fact that there are other avenues and that not all degrees will lead to a better job. I also think that they should know that if it’s not for them that they can leave soon so they don’t have to pay the full ttuition fees for the year or leave at the end of the emyear with an early exit award. We should also make sure to tell them that uni is not this magical place and that they will have good and hard times .
With regards to w hours, I went to uni in 1993 and did a linguistics and Spanish degree and was had 9 contact hours a week back then . The contact hours is nothing new, but I had plenty of reading and essays and language pods in the library and a part time job , and could make appointments with my lecturers to discuss essays etc A lot of uni is for thinking not to be spoon fed what to do .
At the end of the day it’s a choice and as parents we should be presenting a realistic choice to our children and exploring every path with them , uni being just one of them , and being realistic about it . Also make it clear that what you study makes a difference, whether you need a degree for the job you want , whether that specific job market is saturated etc And uni for some can be for growth even if they go into an unrelated carer but should always be an informed choice.
as much as a lot of courses and uni may be missoold as parents we are also responsible in guiding our children.

@RockyKeen

as much as a lot of courses and uni may be missoold as parents we are also responsible in guiding our children.

Not that easy if the parents haven't been to university as they don't have the experience to pass on, so students are left with schools/teachers who often advocate uni as the "only" option for a good career, and unis themselves via open days etc that do tend to "mis-sell" the "experience"

@Badbadbunny I think teachers give out a lot of poor info on careers and “good” degrees based on very limited knowledge. My DNs have followed the advice of teachers and got nowhere after degrees. One DN should have listened to other advice but wouldn’t. Teachers knew better! Parents can do research too! Many of us aren’t stupid that don’t have degrees! Give us some credit!

Neither me nor DH went to uni, in fact none of our immediate family went to uni, our DS is the first in our family.

I agree with the school/teacher sometimes not giving good advice. I remember meeting our son's sixth form tutor to discuss uni applications etc and I'd done some research about Uni league tables, subjects that lead to good careers, unis with good relationships with big employers, etc., and had already done some Uni open days, and she just brushed all that aside and told DS he should choose a subject he loves and choose the uni he loves and not to worry about jobs/careers! Utterly baffling advice, and we quickly told DS to forget what she said!

Because we'd had no Uni experiences to call on, we decided to take DS to open days a year early, to a few of our closest. DS wasn't planning to go to them (but was open), and had no clue about what subject he wanted to take, or even whether he wanted to go at all. We just used those open days as a "starting point" for all three of us to learn about Unis and they were very enlightening, we sat through various "talks" at each, on subjects such as student finance, accommodation options, and a few random subject talks, and talked to students who were giving campus, lab and/or accommodation tours. After those we were a lot more clued up about the whole thing. It was all overwhelming at first, but all three of us soon started to better understand the process, the reality of student life, what different unis could offer in terms of careers advice, different module options, "joint" subjects etc etc.

The following year, we could then do the open days of unis he was actually interested in going to, and subject talks he was interested in taking, and having done all the "basic/generic" stuff the year earlier, we could get straight in to the detail. DS soon made his decisions about subject and preferences for uni. When he filled in his UCAS application form, his sixth form tutor was aghast and tried to get him to change his mind on both subject and Unis as she had her own ideas - he held his nerve much to her annoyance. It all worked out perfectly - the Uni was right for him, the subject was right, and he now has a very good job/career/profession starting work literally as soon as Uni finished on a top UK firm's graduate scheme.

@Badbadbunny DH did go to uni and we have two low grade unis nearish to us or Oxford! So we looked at Oxford. However the low grade ones didn’t do either of my DDs subjects - they did have a notion of what they wanted.

I find the advice from teachers was exactly as you say! I think dc engage more if they mind the subject but then the teacher follows up with “I went to X low grade university and it didn’t do me any harm”. Well maybe it didn’t but this statement surely depends on what dc you are talking to. If dc is clever and could get to Cambridge to do law, why suggest the university that’s 60 th in the league tables for law? It baffles me why “advice” is not nuanced towards the dc in front of them. This seriously disadvantages those whose parents believe this rubbish (and they do) and don’t do any research themselves or are Guardian readers and believe their tables!

University is a serious choice and serious advice should be available but in my immediately family, anti any wealth and being strongly left wing also skewed choices. I don’t see why you scupper your best chance of getting a good job because of political ideals. But - it happens.

My DH comes from a family (only 3 generations ago) of straw plaiters and farm labourers. My great grandfather signed documents with an X. Families who didn’t go to university over centuries are capable of getting the best for dc if they take the blinkers off. These days it’s vital they do.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner

I fully agree, but some parents still aren't able/don't want to do that research nor help their kids when it comes to Uni choices/options, so they're left reliant on dodgy outdated advice by the school/teacher.

Look at many MN threads in recent past re open days with lots of parents still sending their kids to open days on their own or with friends. If they can't be bothered/don't want to go to open days with them, they're hardly likely to be font of all knowledge about helping/guiding them to make the right choices. Parents who do go to open days are often criticised for being "helicopter parents". You can't win!

Same with student loans, tuition fees, etc., where Unis "mis sold" the loans to students at open days etc. We attended a couple of "finance" talks and they used the same slides and followed the same script as to how the loans weren't really loans, most people never paid them back etc. No mention of the ruinously high interest rates, no mention that the payment thresholds weren't guaranteed to rise in line with average earnings etc. I did a spreadsheet with my DS showing how much interest would get added based on how much he borrowed and likely repayments for varying levels of earnings over the decades. We were horrified when it highlighted how even at pretty average earnings (for a professional), he'd end up paying nearly three times the amount he borrowed in interest. It galvanised him into thinking about not taking the full amount of living loan, getting a part time job, etc. Had it been any other loan or financial agreement, it would have been regulated under the FSA regulations, with the "seller" having to do proper due diligence, risk warnings, full explanations, etc. but with Unis and student loans being exempt from the FSA, they could just peddle lies and mistruths to "sell" their Uni course and accommodation!

Students need a lot better advice and protection. Just yet another way in which our youngsters are being shafted and let down these days.

I guess it depends on the school and parents. My daughter’s high school advocates lots of different routes. My parents never went to uni and i knew back then that a linguistics and Spanish degree weren’t gong to get me a top tier job, and that I was going to struggle financial As a student and living away from home , but I also knew I wasn’t ready for work and needed time to grow which uni allowed me to.
theres plenty of information nowadays but still a lot of parents still rate certain courses and certain unis almost blindly and think uni is the only way to go.

Yy @RockyKeen -it’s also wrong to think that parents who went to uni 30 odd years ago necessarily have useful things to say on the process!

Regarding uni her head of year was aghast that my youngest has chosen a post 92 uni. She knows what she wants and why she’s chosen it. Her teachers were more open minded . Being able to work on live briefs , build a portfolio and good industry links make a lot more sense to me than league tables .

Depends on the child. Dd2 chose to go alone to open days. She was very clear what she wanted to do so didn’t need guidance from anyone . Youngest preferred us going with her . We still
let them know that uni was not the only option. .

@devonsevon11
What stats show it's very common?

If it is very common to move uni/course then that indicates the process of getting kids to uni is wrong.

Sending 50% of kids to uni is a disaster.

I don’t know, look up the stats yourself.

I’ve worked in 3 universities and dealt with kids changing course and or uni. Lots of them. Anecdotal. I didn’t say anything about stats.

I didn’t say anything about 50% of kids going to uni and whether it’s a good idea or a bad idea.

jeez, what a strange thing to be so combative about.

@RockyKeen Do you think the top
rated universities don’t have all of that? Did she check it out? Essentially grads need more than degrees and uni study doesn’t make much difference in the end if dc cannot get a job. Often thousands have near identical experiences at university. Sometimes employers wonder why a bright dc has dodged the more elite courses.

Look at many MN threads in recent past re open days with lots of parents still sending their kids to open days on their own or with friends. If they can't be bothered/don't want to go to open days with them, they're hardly likely to be font of all knowledge about helping/guiding them to make the right choices. Parents who do go to open days are often criticised for being "helicopter parents". You can't win!

@Badbadbunny we didn't go with either of ours to open days - we both have plenty to say about university choices, and we said it, but for an open day the most important thing is what the prospective student makes of the place, not his or her parents' opinions. It's also a good moment to practice some initiative and independence, and decide for themselves if the place is a good fit.

As a lecturer who does a lot of open days through the academic year, I would not be sorry if fewer parents came along. Often the sixth former is standing there silently while the parents ask questions of varying degrees of relevance, and not always feeling as though they can ask the questions whose answers matter to them.

But loads of people upthread were blaming parents for not guiding and advising their child through the Uni process. Now people are blaming parents for getting too involved. You can't win!

Different posters have different opinions, this isn't shocking, is it?

In my experience, switching universities isn’t that common, although it could be more common at some universities than others.

Switching courses within the same school or department is more common. Some courses have this flexibility built in. Switching courses between other schools or departments within the same university usually means starting again from scratch with no guarantee of acceptance, so relatively uncommon.

As far as open days are concerned, some prospective students definitely benefit from having a parent accompanying them. Particularly when a student is too timid to initiate a dialogue themselves.