Yet another university pulling Modern Languages degrees

[tadjennyp]

Just seen on the news that Leicester is pulling its MFL degrees despite students having accepted offers. Are languages becoming the preserve of prestigious universities with very high tariffs? What hope do students in sixth forms in schools with low prior attainment have of going to university to study a language? I am feeling quite demoralised as an MFL teacher. What can we do to prevent the decline? And no, google translate does not do the same job as a person being able to converse with confidence.

@OhDear111 oh yes, I agree, 12 is a large number and there is no need to take that many; most DC take 8/9, and 12 is a high workload. DS2 is very able and took 10 and that was plenty.

But you said earlier that taking six sciences was “not unusual” – and yet pretty much the only way that is done is by taking two extra Maths quals as extras – so with triple science, that is usually 12 GCSEs (or equivalent).

I am pretty sure taking six sciences (triple, maths, FM, stats) as part of a set of eight or nine GCSEs (the commonest numbers) is very unusual. As that would only leave max three for Eng lang, Eng lit and one other.

So to sum up – not many 16yos take six sciences or STEM subjects at GCSE actually. I agree tho MFL are in a sad decline, for all the reasons mentioned on this thread.

I think not unusual on MN. Should have been clearer. Most schools don’t offer all of this and I’m in a grammar county!

Depends what you class as STEM - would you include PE? DT? Food Tech?

I do get OhDears point that you could end up with a very sciencey/technical set of GCSEs - certainly at my DC school you could pick, for your 4 GCSE options Computer science, separate sciences, DT and food tech, and completely avoid any arts/humanities subjects apart from English.
Top set maths are given the chance to do level 2 further maths as an after school club, and about half do (and tbh I suspect they do it partly in order to hit the ground running for further maths A level rather than to amass extra qualifications for the sake of it).

So I suppose that is 8 science/techie things out of 10, or without the extra maths, 7 out of 9.

I wouldn’t necessarily call it “specialisation”, there is still a range there, and GCSEs by their nature are just not very specialised.

But no arts and humanities except English are undoubtedly a loss.

I don’t know what the answer is though, if there’s only a certain amount of time in the school day, you can’t fit everything in.

@donstrenchcoatanddarkglasses No. PE just about because it compliments biology. Food tech is a technology. It’s in the name. They are not seen as sciences or maths but are the T bit of stem. Most schools see a T as an addition to 4 sciences (maths, 3 sciences). DT is in the same bracket. Stem but seen as not a science or maths. Throw in technology and some dc can get the total to 7 plus! I just feel breadth should include a MFL and not a skewed set of exams purely following interests.

I completely agree @OhDear111 that at least one MFL (and History and Geography and English Literature) ought to be studied for GCSE. This is a separate issue to the quality of MFL GCSE and the appropriate level of resources necessary to achieve a reasonable standard.

I did 2 languages at GCSE (one accelerated), 2 at A-level and an MFL degree at a prestigious university 20 years ago. We studied French and German literature and politics and spoke and wrote about it in English.

If I had my time again, I‘d keep the A-levels and spend a few months of a gap year doing an intensive language course in the respective country. That would get me to C1 level - a level below native - and I‘d have a Common European Framework certificate to show for it. I‘d then keep the language up through media and foreign students at uni.

Tbf, 20 years ago was before Brexit.

I very much agree with this. If you only have enough funds to cover an undergraduate degree, a joint honours MFL degree is not a good proposition.

There are undergraduate degrees in the UK where languages are incredibly useful but not a prerequisite.

My DC did one GCSE in year 9. 2 in year 10. Rest in year 11

I do agree with this and at my DCs schools one MFL at GCSE is compulsory but they are private schools. On the other hand they also make 3 sciences compulsory which I don’t agree with. If less academic kids are struggling in year 11 they are allowed to drop a language and the bottom science sets switch to combined science. So some kids drop from 10 GCSEs to 9 or 8. These are selective schools. I would have preferred it if they had been allowed to choose combined science as a valid option, not a less academic one. I was very academic at school and was able to choose this option leaving space for extra humanities and languages.

I’ve noticed a few more uk universities have started offering Liberal Arts degrees, with MFL as an optional part - maybe we should have something like that at GCSE along the same lines as combined science.

Instead of compulsory English Lit gcse, you could have Combined Liberal Arts - English lit, history and an MFL, counting as two GCSEs. Or if you wanted, then you could take them separately, as with science, and get 3 separate GCSEs.

You could then draw links between the subjects - Spanish language and history on the conquest of the Americas, for eg. Of Mice And Men in English and The Great Depression in history etc.

That would make 6 compulsory GCSES so still scope for 3 or 4 options.

I have mixed feelings about this. We forced our 3rd DC to take Maths and Sciences to 18 despite their very strong Humanities preferences. Now, on a Humanities degree, those Maths and Sciences come into their own and have been critical for getting accepted onto their first choice Masters.

I deliberately chose to send my DC to private schools for the language offerings. Both took french, latin and greek to year 9, then one did french/latin whilst the other did spanish for GCSE. German, Mandarin, Russian and Italian were also offered. All offered through to A Level too.
My DC were/aren't ligustically talented, but both took advantage of the extra-curricular language offerings at university to study a new language ab-initio with one eventually incorporating it into their degree by switching courses.
Neither has used any language since but I think they appreciated the extra depth it gave to their educational lives and the schools/universities they attended.
The local comp randomly allocated children to either the French or German stream at yr7, which dictated your 2 week timetable of everything else. The language could be dropped at end of yr8 and no others were offered. Plus, you could only do the one allocated language not both for GCSE. (Compulsory RS and IT meant options were very tight).
I feel that it is the general attitude towards languages within schools that is important in getting the average child to feel they can be involved in them. Not just assigning them to the "clever" linguists.

Yes. I was sitting here puzzled, having done languages at school in the 1970s then a (crappy) International Business degree. There was so much noise about the need for languages in the UK, it was compulsory to do one at O-level and so on ... and we weren't in the EU.

I think you're right, though. Way back in the mists of time, people were awestruck if you could speak other languages. Now it feels like there's a stronger sense of 'fuck them forriners and their fancy lingo'.

@GarlicFound Maybe amongst (and let’s be honest) uneducated people but my DDs friends find her MFLs quite useful on holiday! MFLs are NOT just language acquisition either. There’s far more intellect required for the best degrees and of course these can be tailored to interests but I’ve never come across an uneducated linguist! We let a narrative build up that was a blame culture. However not everyone thinks like that. Thank goodness.

Yes, thank goodness, @OhDear111! You've cheered me up a bit 🤗

@GarlicFound I’m still awestruck my DD can speak two! I’m easily pleased. Have a good day!

In Scotland some schools offer a maximum of 8 subjects at National 5 (GCSE equivalent). In others it's only 6. 6!!

If you're taking English and Maths, that might only leave 4 other subjects. It's quite easy to see why many pupils would not study languages to even this basic level.

The only children I know who are taking 6 STEM subjects are those who are privately educated and taking 1 or 2 early and are still getting a broad education.

My own child who will end up with 6 STEM GCSEs is also taking two MFLs and an ancient language.

I think good schools with all round academic dc still want dc to do a MFL. Few offer 2 to GCSE though. I know excellent schools insist on a broad curriculum but many don’t because they are chasing results over a broad curriculum. They start GCSEs in y9 too so lots of subjects dropped. It’s not great in my view so I’m glad some schools don’t do this.

I went to have a look at the figures because I am always in the actual statistics.

In England:
3.4% of students take 2 or more languages at GCSE. This will include students who take a language they speak at home but aren't taught at school +:a school taught language. At DD's school it was 1.9%.
45.9% take at least 1 language at GCSE.
At A level the drop of is dramatic. As a comparison more students take further maths (just) than all languages combined.

16,400 students took a language. 105,755 took maths,18,730 took further maths and 40,940 took history.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/provisional-entries-for-gcse-as-and-a-level-summer-2025-exam-series/provisional-entries-for-gcse-as-and-a-level-summer-2025-exam-series

Thank you @Owlbookend . Stark figures.

@Owlbookend Yes. Exactly. The incidence of dcs having 2 MFLs available for GCSE is rare unless they take their native language. This is quite common. It makes doing a joint honours degree more challenging (2 MFLs) and we now see MFLs offered as ab initio that were always required even 15 years ago - no ab initio offered. Stem is pushed so hard and other, less talented dc, shun MFLs with fewer than 1/2 of pupils managing even one.

This is not a simple state/private binary as some might think.

Large private school near me is not offering A level languages at all next year.

@Piggywaspushed Not entirely surprised. Depends whether it’s highly selective though. I think selective ones will keep going.

Yes, highly selective.