Yet another university pulling Modern Languages degrees

[tadjennyp]

Just seen on the news that Leicester is pulling its MFL degrees despite students having accepted offers. Are languages becoming the preserve of prestigious universities with very high tariffs? What hope do students in sixth forms in schools with low prior attainment have of going to university to study a language? I am feeling quite demoralised as an MFL teacher. What can we do to prevent the decline? And no, google translate does not do the same job as a person being able to converse with confidence.

My DD's state school sixth form run languages at A level. They offer french and german. I dont know what the minimum student number is for them to run is, but I know that they have run them with less than 5 students. In fact I dont think either has had 6+ in recent years. They are the only public transport accessible option for a levels in some areas of the catchment. They are expensive to keep running, but they are a community school and want to give interested students the opportunity.

DC’s state comprehensive continues to
run 3 languages A levels.

Interestingly, given the STEM GCSE discussion above, they only offer combined science (all 3 subjects but 2 GCSEs, slightly less content than triple) for all. This gives 5 ‘core’ GCSEs (Maths, 2x English, 2x Science) and 5 option blocks, which are constructed to nudge but not force a range of options in which it is fairly hard to avoid 1 humanity, 1 language, 1 arts-related subject.

I know this is MN education anathema- but their A level Science take up is excellent and results up there with comparable schools offering triple science at GCSEs.Medicine / vet / Oxbridge science / engineering applications - significant numbers, again in line with similar schools that offer triple science.

My local girls grammar did double award science for years and didn’t have issues with science A level results. They used to offer 5 MFLs!

Given how difficult TMUA and ESAT are, it is entirely possible to imagine that some schools/families might think it wise to do three Maths and three separate science GCSEs in order to maximize readiness before 4 STEM A-levels and TMUA/ESAT prep.

This scenario would of course leave little room for breadth of other subjects and would narrow students' focus even further than it already is with A-level specialization. But given the great payoff of a good TMUA or ESAT, maybe this is an inevitable distortion.

I get why British students don't really bother learning other languages — like, why would you when pretty much everyone else is already learning English? It's basically the go-to language for business, work, and loads of industries worldwide.

I think it's important for people to pay for the internet and use it with good intentions, like finding which languages are worth studying and learning to make a living from, more or less.

Learning a language for your job? Totally different vibe than going to uni, racking up debt, throwing cash at parties, and studying something you love but can’t really turn into a career.

Honestly, we could take some notes from China—students there treat English like a must-have skill, not just a fun side hobby. They’re all about boosting their career game, not wasting years and cash on stuff that won’t actually help them later. Plus, they stick to English in school and only dive into other languages in university—if they think it’ll actually matter for their future jobs.

Put studying aside and explore MFL or any subjects that spark your passion and curiosity when you’re not busy fighting to make ends meet and paying bills left, right, and center.

My local high school in the US (state school) offers French, German, Spanish (separate tracks for Spanish as a first language and as a second language), Italian, Hebrew, Japanese, Chinese, and Latin. It's a big school.

@ThisTicklishFatball "Honestly, we could take some notes from China—students there treat English like a must-have skill, not just a fun side hobby."

It isn't necessary to go as far as China to find people who treat English as a must have; European countries vary in their English skills but you won't find anyone who doesn't wish they spoke fluent English and doesn't wish their children spoke fluent English, even if they don't have the means to achieve that.

You can’t have read the thread…

I went abroad a while ago and all the waitstaff/museum staff/other tourist providers spoke excellent English, which you would expect I guess, in order to earn a living, but it does make you feel like a) you're not actually in a foreign country and b) there is no point learning languages. Worse than that though, absolutely all the music playing in the restaurants and bars was English language. When I'm abroad I like to know I'm abroad, and not just because it's sunnier.

Yes, our state school continues to offer 3 languages at A Level, although generally for single figure uptake. And yes, agree that combined science seems to cause frothing at the mouth on here, but our school only offer combined and have no worse outcomes in numbers taking science and then progressing to STEM degrees than neighbouring schools. This does indeed leave much more choice at GCSE - which is a genuinely free-choice with no option blocks.

Yes I think people misunderstand the purpose/value of GCSEs. They’re a lot about learning how to learn, how to analyse, how to write essays, how to answer exam questions, how to structure answers, work under pressure, organise revision - time management and more…. Lots and lots of skills (like language learning!) The in-depth subject knowledge really begins with A levels and obviously really gets going at university. The actual knowledge content in GCSE sciences is trivial and will be repeated in much greater depth at A level so it really doesn’t matter if you didn’t learn parts of it in your particular GCSE. It’s also why taking 3 maths GCSEs is absurd. (And suggesting that helps give you a leg up for ESAT/TMUA is laughable.)

@ThisTicklishFatball But you don’t just learn MFLs to talk! The whole point is concentrating on new skills, learning about cultures and how other cultures differ from ours, eg arts, history, literature, food, interests etc. What makes other people tick. It shows dedication and an interest in others and gets dc out of their uk bubble.

Similar concerns about Essex:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78l5d5y2zno

I have signed the petition, probably to no avail.
My school has decided they're halving our MFL curriculum to one hour a week in KS3. We probably won't get many opting for GCSE with so little time, never mind A Level then university. I did speak to one of my A Level students from last year who is continuing to do Spanish a couple of hours a week alongside her main degree so I am not entirely hopeless yet!

Our school axed drama completely from year 9 and they still get a healthy GCSE uptake (probably much to SLT's annoyance...) so don't despair!

The utilitarianism of education is pretty depressing.

Thank you for the glimmer of hope Piggy. It is the utilitarian push towards more maths, English and science and away from sparking kids' interests in other areas that I find a bit depressing. The closer that schools like ours get to the national average, the higher that average will be anyway! Well, enjoy the Easter holidays if you're in education. I shall be using my hard earned language skills in the south of France!

The trouble with language at uni level apart from poor uptake at A'level and a shift towards STEM, is that unis now rely on international students to bump up the cash and foreign students don't come to study foreign languages in the UK. Therefore, not only do MFL depts don't have many students but they are also the wrong type of student. This makes these departments too expensive to run. In some unis, especially big ones they might be cross subsidized by other dept but that's risky.

They can't be that expensive? Satellite subscription and a few rooms to teach in. Different to expensive physics equipment, for example. Not that physics departments are huge anymore judging by recent open days.

Well they are expensive in so far as no degree is cost efficient anymore and every UK student is subsidized by international students. So not only do they not have the large numbers of student to justify the costs of running the classes - language classes are very staff heavy because you have to have different levels of language proficiency, classes are tiny etc. but they also don't have any international students to actually pay for the tuition in full. Comparison to my social science subject - we now run two hours back to back for 120 students...70% of them are international and pay 39k instead of 9k. Comparison with language classes - they have classes for 5 students....no internationals. So yes, MFL are expensive to run, lack students and crucially get home only rather than international students.

Most STEM subjects plus econ now live off international students either at BA or MA level. Those students may 30k plus per year when compared to measly 9k from home students. Lots of MFL dept also don't take in a lot of MA students - again MA students pay 20k/30k per year. Lots of dept make a lot of cash on postgrads to subsidize their BA students whose tuition is capped at 9k if they are home. Sadly a lot of this is not only demand but also economics driven

@tadjennyp There’s not much push towards English. It’s girl heavy and not great graduate salaries afterwards and not as competitive as it once was. People lean more towards vocational courses.

Yes, the economic model of MFL degrees is structurally much less advantageous than many other humanities degrees: more contact hours, smaller classes, many fewer international students. Many universities expect humanities and social science degrees to cross subsidize subjects with expensive labs etc which MFL cannot do.

Where to start, just attended the MFL offer holders day with DC1, they are looking at joint honours with history.
there was a very good introductory lecture from a professor that looked head on at the decline in languages in the UK, a lament of a national MFL strategy, an acknowledgment that MFL provision is moving to a large hub model, as supplied by them and for example Edinburgh and a suggestion that doing a course while it exists should unfortunately be a consideration, rather than taking a year out .

when. DC1 mentioned there interest in MFL, we did counsel that they should choose from the most competitive unis that they liked with the idea that these are most stable.

Good for your dc. Wishing them the best of luck.

@Sanddancing That’s the best advice from Edinburgh. Bright dc don’t need a year out from a 4 (5?) year degree. I’d always recommend aiming high for MFLs too. Usually a better choice of modules and not bolted on courses. The academics are still there. Tariffs for pure MFL have been lowish for decades. Were when DD went but totally agree with discounting lower reaches of league tables! Sounds harsh but students need flourishing departments, not languishing ones in the depths of despair!