Yet another university pulling Modern Languages degrees

[tadjennyp]

Just seen on the news that Leicester is pulling its MFL degrees despite students having accepted offers. Are languages becoming the preserve of prestigious universities with very high tariffs? What hope do students in sixth forms in schools with low prior attainment have of going to university to study a language? I am feeling quite demoralised as an MFL teacher. What can we do to prevent the decline? And no, google translate does not do the same job as a person being able to converse with confidence.

At DDs school student must take one of french/german/history/geography and 3 free choices. One could be the other MFL, but it would be starting from scratch in Year 10.
The three free choices aren't restricted. Students are encouraged to discuss their choices with staff and parents.

But there is ideology in the selection of GCSEs because of the insistence on English lit and 3 sciences. Plenty of students don’t have aptitude for these subjects. And yet MFL has to be given a higher bar of showing aptitude?

Did you see better take up when there were AS levels?

Yes, although more so in other subjects tbh- especially English Lit.

@Piggywaspushed In a very decent area though? And your A level MFL numbers are? Not very high I suspect? How many go on to MFL degrees? Even fewer o guess. How many do 2 MFLs at A level?

@Owlbookend. So they frankly get a choice of one MFL. This is typical. Two MFLs from y7/8 is more unusual but so much more helpful to linguists

@OwlbookendNo one chooses MFLs - why? Too hard is my view. Of course other subjects are easier! You do get uptake in selective schools. However many are offering traditional subjects and not lots like business studies etc. Of course dc choose what they like and 6 science GCSEs isn’t unusual. This is not a general education though. It’s doing what you find easy. It’s certainly not being well educated. As most dc do whst you say, why is anyone surprised at Leicester closing MFLs. They have a high state school intake and probably lots of locals. It’s not their strongest department by a long way. They are not Durham or similar.

I did answer most of that upthread to be honest and in my post that you are replying to. As I said, whilst GCSE is healthy A level is less so (but still going). A handful do go on to degrees - mainly joint degrees with eg law. Plenty who do Latin GCSE take classics A level and then a related degree.

Not many do two languages at A level, no. But that is true of all schools now. It really is a long time since that was a norm.

Yeah, it probably was because it was “with” rather than “and”, but still makes no sense to me in terms of course design to stop the language element in the final year 🤷‍♀️. At the time I thought the “with” was more in reference to the fact the language was a third of my modules rather than 50% as with dual honours. It was a rigorous German course - the language modules encompassed grammar lectures, translation and oral classes with Lektorinnen, and we did interpreting in final year (another aspect I would have missed out on if I’d not pushed to due German modules in the 4th year), and the department offered a wide range of history, literature (including Middle High German!), politics, linguistics and some film studies modules.

I was examined throughout in both subjects - first year exams didn’t count towards the final classification but years 2 and 4 did. I was told the marks I attained in my year abroad also counted, but then I had to argue to get them noted in my degree transcript, because initially it just said I’d “passed” my third year (can’t remember the exact wording used) - and I’d worked damn hard for my “sehr gut“/ 1,0 marks so I wasn’t having them left off the transcript 😂.

Interestingly, I’ve just googled and Bristol now does offer History and German so that’s good to know, and is probably what I’d have gone for back in the day.

6 science GCSEs isn't unusual?

MFLs are hard for students to do well at at A-level because language teaching in English schools is inadequately resourced and supported rather than the standard examined being especially high.

@OhDear111 I think the reasons for low uptake are complex. Other subjects that might be perceived as hard/traditional have much higher uptake. I think STEM is favoured because it is perceived as a route to a good career even if seen as 'hard'. There also is an increasing insular outlook at least locally - reform overwhelming won the school mock election. I find it sad. Like you I value a broad education and MFLs, but I don't know what the levers for change are. KS3 dual.languages were offered, but dropped due to very, very low dual take up at KS4. I think MFL is a vibrant enthusiastic department t the school. DD has an excellent native speaker teacher. That pool is shrinking due to Brexit. Some schools like @Piggywaspushed do better at least at KS4. I suppose we need to look at what schools with higher KS4 uptake are doing and build on that.

Also students do choose an MFL for GCSE at DD's school, just numbers are lower than for history & geography. It was the very, very low numbers taking two MFLs to GCSE that led to a single language offering at KS3.

At my DC’s school half the students are allocated to French and half to Spanish in Y7. They later get the choice to pick up the other one too.
About 10% take the opportunity, which does seem quite low - but those that opt not to instead get the chance of introductory courses in business, media, photography or law, which do seem quite a bit more vocational.

There is the option to do both for GCSE, which again, is a small minority of keen linguists.

At A level, the classes are small, but particularly high-achieving. I think quite similar to the further maths A level it’s pretty self-selecting, you only choose it because you have natural ability and it’s your passion.

There is still the option of AS level and that’s a bit more popular.
You can choose both French and Spanish but I think that’s pretty unusual, one or two persons per year territory.

I do think studying two helps to reinforce both, tbh I think that’s one of the big issues. Most students only get the chance to try out one, and it’s a lot easier to realise you might like, or be good at, learning languages when you get to try more than one.

Yeh I looked twice at that @sixsept

I think what @OhDear111 means is triple science, maths, FM and stats. But I wouldn't say that was super common. No secondaries near me or that I know offer FM (not a GCSE btw but hey) or stats. DS2 rook four science GCSEs bc he did CS. For sure that’s not unusual. But five or six is not so common I would say.

I hadn’t thought about it like that but I think we just mean STEM rather than science. So my DD is doing 6 then as she’s doing maths, 3 sciences, computer science and further maths. Also taking French and will be taking it for A level!

@franklymydearscarlett Yes. It’s overload of stem. No one needs all of those at GCSE. What thst isn’t is a general broad education. It’s actually too narrow. Yes French is there but what else? We turn out dc as specialists at 16 and some do the KS3 curriculum for 2 years! Then drop a load of subjects. It’s poor.

But are they all generally taught in a lot of British universities?

Or perhaps it's the desperation of universities due to inadequate funding and reluctance to pass the cap and start fundraising as American universities have done for decades?

Universities have their backs to the wall and are forced to concentrate on those subjects/ degrees international students are choosing, and paying well above the UK home rate to do so.

Just chipping in with a reminder that the Alliance Francaise and the Goethe Institut both offer courses at multiple levels for students of all ages.

Thank you for this. I did a french degree 20 years ago and still keep it up with YouTube and podcasts. I had never even heard of the Alliance Francaise and it turns out there is one a mile away so I will definitely sign up for a course.

How many GCSEs did Ur DC do? My eldest did 14 + fsmq

I think the students who are taking 6 STEM subjects are usually taking a couple of those early as extra GCSEs so aren't actually getting a less broad education. My DC is one of those who will end up with 6 STEM GCSEs. Maths and Stats taken in year 10. FM and three sciences in Yr 11. So still able to study a number of other subjects.

Lots of schools don’t do early GCSEs and it’s still 6 whenever they do it. It’s just fewer exams in y11! It’s an imbalance however you look at it. Juggling all the exams in one go is also a skill!

I don’t think it’s an imbalance though if they are extras, and they pretty much always are.

Tripke science, maths, stats, FM certificate, Eng x 2, history, French, music, DT. Sounds pretty balanced to me tbh and ok for an able YP (which is what we are talking about after all).

12 is huge @clary in this day and age. 9 or 10 taken in one summer is normal these days. Yes, the very bright can do 12, but it’s unusual. That group is balanced (ish) but the 2 extra stem aren’t needed other then for a GCSE collection of stem subjects!

However, the bigger issue is dc dropping MFLs and A level classes being phased out due to lack of interest. So it’s not surprising Leicester has closed it department. We will really need centres of excellence soon. A narrow MFL offering in the rump of a department at any university isn’t appealing.

That’s not really what I was getting at - on top of her 6 STEM subjects she’s also doing French, English x 2, geography and PE so pretty balanced really.