Yet another university pulling Modern Languages degrees

[tadjennyp]

Just seen on the news that Leicester is pulling its MFL degrees despite students having accepted offers. Are languages becoming the preserve of prestigious universities with very high tariffs? What hope do students in sixth forms in schools with low prior attainment have of going to university to study a language? I am feeling quite demoralised as an MFL teacher. What can we do to prevent the decline? And no, google translate does not do the same job as a person being able to converse with confidence.

MFL pretty popular at A-level from the early 1960s.

@sixsept Great chart and yes, there was a golden age of MFL and particularly French A-level, in world where far fewer students were doing A-levels at all. I wonder whether MFL didn't supplant Latin and Greek to some extent.

When I said golden age, I was more refering to the teaching style/quality and availability of GCSE level courses. I don't doubt the drop off in numbers, particularly at Alevel (it is what the thread is about). I was thinking about the comments about teaching style. Engaging with natural language was being highlighted, presumably outside the classroom that was pretty difficult in the 60s and 70s. I'd have thought vocab and grammar learning was as integral then as it is now. Im not sure teaching was more engaging for previous generations, but like with everything I could be wrong. 😊
Currently pretty much all students have a KS3 MFL course, but dual language offerings are in decline. Students are taking it less frequently at GCSE as there is a push towards STEM, a lower confidence in the value of MFL and an issue with perceived difficulty. In some areas there may also be influenced by a more insular world outlook. I think these are more likely factors influencing student choice than teaching style and standard.
The overwhelming majority of schools will offer MFL at GCSE, but increasingly students don't choose it. Posters have highlighted some excellent MFL offerings during the 60s and 70s, however I think these have all been at grammar schools. Most young people attended secondary moderns. How many of them were studying and completing KS4 MFL courses? School leaving age wasn't raised until 72 (i think), and students were still leaving before exams when I was at school. Maybe high quality KS4 MFL courses were typically offered in secondary moderns with high uptake. I don't know (not being sarcastic - I don't).

I'd also like to highlight that good MFL teaching that is currently offered. My DD receives teaching almost exclusively in french (some grammar is explained in english). Lessons are interactive and focused. There is regular assessment and feedback. It isn't easy to enthuse teens who don't always value languages, but my DD's teacher is certainly trying. She is also french so I imagine her language skills are pretty good. This won't be a universal experience, but it does happen.

You said "In my parent generation (born 40s/50s) MFLs to O level or CSE were taken by a minority", whereas looking at the chart that was possibly something of a peak considering the smaller population then.

And yes it might well have been mainly in grammar schools, but those are the kids who went on to A-level and degrees, which is what the thread was originally about.

My parents (born in the 40s) did MFL A-levels at grammar school and then to degree level. I think there was an excitement and optimism back then about learning languages, becoming closer to Europe, etc., which has gone now, made even worse by Google Translate and AI.

The chart is A levels. The thread reflects a grammar school experience mainly.
A majority of students attended secondary moderns. CSEs didn't even exist until the mid 60s. For example even if every 16 year old in 1962 took a MFL O level, 45% of 16 year olds wouldn't be taking one. More students could be taking MFL GCSEs now than took equivalent qualifications in the 60s.

My Dad was born in 1943, he would be 16 in 1959. I doubt 45% of 16 year olds were taking an MFL qualification in 1959. 45% of them weren't in grammar school and many would have left school at 15. It wasn't 16 till the very early 70s.

The Certificate of Secondary Education (CSE) was a qualification offered from 1965 until the introduction of the General Certificate of Secondary Education (GCSE) in 1986. You can find out more information about CSEs below.
Read less
CSE Qualifications – what are they?
Before 1965, schools did not award any formal qualifications to school leavers. This meant that these learners did not hold any official documentation when they went into further study or employment.
The Certificate of Secondary Education (CSE) was developed so that students could take a formal exam, and receive a certificate that proved their level of education.
CSEs were assessed by a combination of coursework and exams, and were available in both academic and vocational subjects.

But it's top set (or grammar school) MFL that matters if we're thinking about the decline at degree level isn't it?

I meant 'even if every 16 in grammar school'
Sorry, Im awful for not checking my posts.

45% of young people currently take a GCSE MFL. A greater proportion than top set/grammar level?

There may have been higher proportions in the past, but it doesn't seem likely in the 60s.

@Owlbookend When I started school, aged 3, in September 1969, our school had a full time "Mademoiselle" (a French native speaker teacher, rather elderly) and we did plays in French every year as well as learning Frère Jacques and other common songs right from the outset.

@sixsept In 1950 there were 22 universities. Hardly anyone went to university - grammar school or not. The tripartite system of education was introduced with the 1944 Education Act and I suspect the Technical schools taught MFLs too. They did in my LA. I think the curriculum in the secondary moderns changed to include a MFL but cse would have limited access to A levels.

When more “new” universities came on stream in the 50s and 60s, (eg Surrey, Sussex, Kent etc) and polytechnics were established, there was a big change to comprehensive schools and MFLs were more widely available. It’s not always appreciated how few dc went to university in the 50s. The 60s saw a big extension so post war babies had a much bigger opportunity.

Gender is another interesting aspect. MFL a levels have always been mire popular with girls rather than boys.

Here are some figures...

I would agree with all this and would add. I dont think it is appreciated how many young people left school without any formal qualifications in the 50s and 60s. The majority weren't even offered any until the CSE was introduced.

That's true. My parents were born mid-forties so benefited from the 1960s expansion.

Yes - if you look at the totals they rose until the turn of the century then declined.

Correct. But it does suggest a higher proportion took MFL at 16 in the 1960s than today. I can't really see the numbers recovering now either, sadly.

We can surely assume that one reason uptake of MFL was higher among girls than boys was because girls were not traditionally subjected to the same régime of Classics that boys were.

It might be true, but there would have to be about over a 25% growth in the population of 16 year olds between 65 and 2020 if im reading it right.

I dont think it is true. I could be wrong - often are. But if ww believe google ....

• 1965: The population of England was approximately 47.67 million.
• 2020: The population was estimated to be over 56 million (with the UK total at 67.1 million).

That isn't 25% growth and it is largely driven by an aging demographic not an increase in 16 year olds.

Sorry if my figures are way off - it is early 😊

Any way this has been a nice discussion. I like it on MN when people can present different views without it descending into nastiness.
However, im driving to a francophone (i think that is the right word - no classical education for me 🙂) country tommorow and need to pack the car.

I've been googling and have come to the same conclusion! I'd assumed because the population has grown over that period that the number of 16-year-olds would have too, but didn't factor in the baby-boomers

As you said before though, MFL would have been (presumably) more grammar-school based in 1965, which partly contributed to the much higher numbers taking MFL A-levels back then.

Bonnes vacances!