Oxford to drop PAT, MAT, TSA, etc

[Muu9]

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/guide/admissions-tests

Thoughts? I think it's a bad move for physics, as the time-pressured nature ESAT simply isn't very good at spotting the deep thinkers most physics programs look for.

And now no admissions test required at all for MFL. Will this mean interview will be all important? Or supra-curriculars?

As a move towards equity this is good. The Oxford-specific entrance exam surely gave advantage to pupils from schools with strong Oxford links and the ability meaningfully to support Oxford applications. We all know this need not correlate with merit.

But the STEM subject Oxford exams were generally very good. In that sense this is a bit sad. I am not a fan of the ESAT.

I imagine bookings are going to be even more diabolical than they were for this years October TMUA sitting.

I'm not convinced that's the case. For many years (decades even), academics responsible for Physics admissions at Oxford have interpreted the results of the entrance exams in the context of the candidates' school.

I welcome this - I agree with @poetryandwine that having Oxford-specific tests favoured schools and colleges already familiar with the process. Booking the test and getting to the test centre was a bit of a ballache as well, and that's with a parent who was supportive and took time off to drive them there.

Can't get how the aptitude exam like MAT gave advantage to pupils from schools with strong Oxford links?

I agree completely. UAT are really going to have to up their game in terms of website capacity and availability of tests. It was a struggle this year but with even more people attempting to log on it could be a nightmare.

I think they have good intentions, and really try.

I am amazed, as life goes on, by the fact that I continually meet successful academics - leading researchers - who found the Oxbridge admissions exams unbelievably intimidating. They were too intimidated to try, or they were too stressed to perform well, etc.

You might say they weren’t up to snuff, but I would argue that if a number of future leading researchers (as measured by international esteems) aren’t up to it, something is wrong with either the exam or the system.

Preparation matters a great deal. Same with the Scholastic Aptitude Test in America, which has been taken by millions of university applicants and for which a great deal of data on this exists.

Top mathematicians, whom Oxford aims to recruit, do not even need to prepare to achieve good marks in the MAT

@Freebee93 for MFL in 2010, there was a test morning on the day of the interview. Then interview later. I think DD did writing and translation and then the interview certainly talked about the translation which was a poem. If they return to this it seems fair.

Does anyone not prep for MAT? Surely familiarisation does matter?

@poetryandwine How do you propose distinguishing between candidates who all have excellent predicted A-level grades? IMHO (as a successful, Oxbridge-educated, academic from an underprivileged background $), for maths and the physical sciences, a well-written aptitude test combined with an interview is better than the available alternatives (GCSE grades, personal statement). Interestingly, a lot of the US institutions that ditched the SAT are reinstating it, as a significant number of the students they admitted without it struggled.

$ The approach of the FE college I did my A-levels to entrance exam preparation was to give me a couple of past papers to look at. They weren't able to help; the maths teachers would use my answers to A-level past exam papers to correct their own...

My DC did two past papers for preparation, that's all.

I know top mathematicians (DH is a Russell Group Maths professor, but he is a Cambridge man), including one Oxbridge Maths professor and several RG professors, who were too intimidated to apply there. Intentions only go so far.

Of course it does, and they do. When I was doing Admissions I participated in Outreach Days and helped with this (I am Maths adjacent)

I agree top Schools need to distinguish further amongst top candidates. TMUA is pretty good. I really just don’t think ESAT is very good. It could be improved.

I am amazed, as life goes on, by the fact that I continually meet successful academics - leading researchers - who found the Oxbridge admissions exams unbelievably intimidating. They were too intimidated to try, or they were too stressed to perform well, etc.

If someone is stressed or intimidated by the Oxbridge entrance exams, they're probably going to be stressed by the reality of doing an Oxbridge undergraduate degree (regular 2-to-1 tutorials, collections, high-stakes exams,...) and are likely to be happier and more successful studying elsewhere. The overlap between the attributes required to be a successful academic and those required to be suited to doing an undergraduate degree at Oxbridge varies by field. IME FWIW, the more mathematical the area, the more likely it is that a successful academic is Oxbridge educated.

I did not say it was specifically the entrance exams. In most cases there was a strong socio-economic component.

In my very strong School we still have excellent students reluctant to apply to Oxbridge, particularly Oxford, for doctoral studies because school friends who did undergraduate degrees there were miserable. My sense is that there is usually a socio-economic aspect to this. Not, of course, that one need be middle class to fit in; but it seems that a significant percent who are not do feel out of place. It is difficult to tease out to what extent this may be a self fulfilling prophecy.

In no case can I imagine that theRussell Group maths professors, leading researchers, etc, I am thinking of would have been stressed by the Oxford workload, or unable to keep with peers.

@poetryandwine I was amazed at the assertion that some don’t need to. Most people like to feel comfortable about format even if they are brilliant and of course many aren’t genius level.

I agree with this too having had the stress of it in 2024. The company is diabolical. It is sad they are the gatekeepers to even more students chances.

I think that all extra admission tests should be administered by and in schools/colleges. It would make the system much fairer and easier to access.

One advantage to the Oxford exams was that they were free.

Excellent point. UAT has a bursary scheme but it will be an obstacle for some.

I don’t know whether the scale is such that the government could pay exam fees? Probably not a popular thing to pursue at the moment

@poetryandwine What you originally wrote was "I am amazed, as life goes on, by the fact that I continually meet successful academics - leading researchers - who found the Oxbridge admissions exams unbelievably intimidating. They were too intimidated to try, or they were too stressed to perform well, etc." I'm really struggling to see how that can be interpreted as "I did not say it was specifically the entrance exams."

Potential applicants being put off by the general climate at Oxbridge is a big issue, but it's a different one, which you originally didn't mention at all.

@xxuserxxThat's splitting hairs really about feeling intimidated! Exams and Oxbridge cannot really be separated as a feeling of being intimidated. It’s both surely?