Oxford to drop PAT, MAT, TSA, etc

[Muu9]

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/guide/admissions-tests

Thoughts? I think it's a bad move for physics, as the time-pressured nature ESAT simply isn't very good at spotting the deep thinkers most physics programs look for.

Years ago I sat one of those admissions tests and scored in the top 1% of candidates but still got rejected so I don't think they were ever paying much attention to test scores anyway 🤷‍♀️

Sincere congratulations to the LAE, @Notanorthener

However access to good preparation for university admissions tests should not be restricted to applicants from selecting schools, whether they are grammars, independents or, as with the LAE, academies.

What is the proper role for selectivity in taxpayer funded schools is a complex question. I don’t think oversimplification helps.

I think a lot of attention to test results is paid in selection of candidates for interview, it would seem for STEM subjects at least.

Looking at the stats, some very high-scoring candidates don't get accepted at interview, which seems to be crucial - it could of course be an off day for the particular candidate.

I was later told that I was accepted for English, many years ago, because of a strong interest I had in a particular genre, which came across in one of my exam essays, and which we then discussed in interview (I thought the interview had gone badly).

Andrew Lloyd Webber got accepted for history in significant part because of his niche fascination with the architecture and history of castles, according to his autobiography.

Enthusiasm, engagement with the interviewers, luck on the day. And there is inevitably a strong element of chance, with so many very good candidates applying for a limited number of places.

I’m not over simplifying. In a state system with limited resources you need selection and specialisation so that resources can be focused on particular specialisms across the ability spectrum. You cannot expect a school with 1or 2 Oxbridge candidates to be able to prepare them in the same way that a school with 100 applicants can unless you have an excess of resources in the 1st school - which is impossible in our underfunded system. In other words if you want to support pupils who don’t have the family resources to succeed you have to provide them with the resources and that means concentrating them in schools where it is economically effective to do so. State schools in London are able to do this because they can specialise - and the results speak for themselves. The challenge is how to achieve this elsewhere in the country.

Wanting to offer this opportunity in every school - whilst admirable - is economically impossible - a pipe dream.

What I’m trying to say is that whereas @poetryandwine and @Ceramiq are saying that these entrance tests are potentially a way of gatekeeping for the middle classes, if the state organises its limited resources in the best way, these entrance tests can actually be a gateway to opportunity for all, regardless of socio economic background.

There is no perfect mass education system because resources, not least high calibre teachers, are limited.

The fairest way to address educational inequality is through selective state education ("grammar schools") accessible to all across the country for the top 25% of students. But since that is politically unpalatable, the middle classes find it pretty easy to gate keep educational opportunity.

@Notanorthener Google informs me that a couple of years ago LAE accepted 250/6600 applicants, an acceptance rate of under 3.8%. This necessarily has a large element of randomness. I’ve already congratulated the alumni who go on to to top universities - hardly restricted to Oxbridge - but it is obvious that the majority of well qualified applicants do not get the same chance. A dozen more LAEs would not solve the problem even in London.

In less densely populated areas with poor public transport, there are significant logistical problems with schools for the gifted/high achieving.

There are other ways to prepare students for top universities at scale. For STEM admissions, , the AMSN wasn’t perfect but it did a lot more than MEI is doing so far. Programmes across LEAs and wider regions can be very effective. Universities can do more.

All children deserve an excellent education. I may be an academic but I don’t see that any group is more worthy.

Education researchers are concerned that streaming in schools - and selecting schools are an extension of this - may promote a fixed mindset in which YP disconnect from the idea that perseverance pays off. We know that university students from independent schools with a given set of A level results will, on average, do less well than state school students with the same results.

Do you have any data on the degree classifications of LAE pupils?

"We know that university students from independent schools with a given set of A level results will, on average, do less well than state school students with the same results."

The ability of UK universities to track student data and performance has been a great leveller. UK university courses are by and large well set up to allow first year students to work on skills gaps, safe in the knowledge that first year assessments rarely count towards degree classification ie first year really and truly is a formative exercise.

Anecdotally, one of our DC, currently in third year, comments that her perception is that her course cohort's performance ranking has changed radically since the first term of first year. Some new undergraduates were extremely comfortably prepared by their private schools for first year but those same undergraduates didn't necessarily have the untapped cognitive powers of less well prepared undergraduates and over the course of three years have slipped behind other students, sometimes very considerably, and not necessarily at all because they work much less.

I am sorry I am jumping here before reading the whole thread and perhaps this point has been covered already. I just saw that Cambridge Maths will use TMUA from 2027 to select candidates for the maths interview. Is STEP going to stay as part of the process ? Perhaps that has not been communicated yet since the website says that their prospectus have not been updated.

Yes, it’s been discussed above. The hope on the thread is that STEP will remain, as it is tough but objective. However the failure rate is rather ridiculous. Perhaps TMUA can be used to make fewer offers.