Oxford to drop PAT, MAT, TSA, etc

[Muu9]

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/guide/admissions-tests

Thoughts? I think it's a bad move for physics, as the time-pressured nature ESAT simply isn't very good at spotting the deep thinkers most physics programs look for.

Fair enough.

Objectively there would have been no reason for these people to be intimidated, but they did not necessarily realise this. It may be more accurate to say they were intimidated by the mystique around the entrance exams. That is a function of background, and lack of exposure and preparation.

IME, no it's not. I know multiple state-educated working/lower-middle class mathematicians and physical scientists who were put off by the non-academic aspects of Oxbridge, but embraced the challenge of difficult exams. If you're a strong mathematician who's routinely getting 100% on A-level papers doing challenging maths can actually be fun.

@xxuserxx But universities are not sll
the same and that’s good. They might not like something but that’s not the same as intimidation. They don’t want a gown and dinners so turn away from the best education because of that? I can see it’s disliking something but I don’t see why they cannot get past the odd annoyance! It’s not intimidating.

@OhDear111 what I've learnt over time like @poetryandwine is that people have very different perceptions of what is intimidating and yes for some the wooden panelled hall, grand buildings gowns etc are intimidating. I have a colleague who is very bright - got a place at Oxford to read physics but didn't take it up because they were too intimidated by the surroundings during the interview process, an old large college. They went to another excellent university and then did return to Oxford to do a post grad course when they had developed more confidence.

Interesting question - maybe they will adapt the interview? DD had to do the MLAT and LAT - I wonder if they concluded there wasn't a significant correlation between results in these tests and how students performed? Or maybe they are seeking to remove barriers to applications with the decline in MFL in secondary schools and will then use the interviews to sift?

@Juja Does it not matter what the interview looks like? My DD did tests on the interview day, presumably put together by the faculty. They then formed part of the interview.Maybe that worked better?

I really do think intelligent people know what Oxbridge is before applying and reject it on their terms. As plenty of poorer dc do go, not everyone feels like out of place.

It’s not just confidence either. My dsis would not go anywhere near it but she was anti Oxbridge full stop, More a political stance that was very common and still is. Some people are not open to meet people not like them and like similar folk. They wish to continue to live in their bubble. Others feel they are not bright enough..

Yes, they can apply later when a bit more mature because, in life, you do have to put prejudice and to one side and get out of your comfort zone. I do think it’s prejudice against what Oxbridge is as opposed to intimidation.

If it doesn’t rock your boat for stem, there’s always Imperial!

The admissions test landscape for entrance to highly selective university courses in the UK was getting out of hand with many different tests that were particularly confusing for international applicants so it's a good thing in principle if Oxford drops its own tests and TMUA, ESAT and TARA become the standard. With the proviso of course that TMUA, ESAT and TARA are valid and reliable standardized tests and that UAT-UK is a well organized provider.

Were the MLAT and LAT computer-based tests? I presume that one of the reasons for the change to UAT-UK TMUA/ESAT/TARA is that they are secure computer-based tests. Cheating in university admissions tests is a massive problem in Asia and the Middle East. And another reason is that standardized computer-based tests used by several universities will supply lots of lovely data for statistical analysis over time. The days of hand written tests invigilated at applicants' schools are behind us, both for data analysis and security reasons.

There will be winners and losers.

Dyslexics and others with slow processing speeds, struggle with timed tests. This includes those who do not have English as a first language. A surprising number of creative scientists, capable of thinking outside the box, are neurodiverse. Experience with UCAT was that extra time does not help. The dyslexic has already had to concentrate harder during normal time, and is pretty brain dead by extra time.

My understanding was that STEP provides the best correlation between score and eventual degree class. Some aptitude tests have a pretty weak correlation.

By the way what is meant by "equity". I assume aptitude tests were brought in to support equity. If they don't then why use them.

@Needmoresleep There are good arguments for making all candidates for standardized tests do them within the same time frame - extra time, as you say, is not necessarily helpful when the tests are by nature highly pressurized and exhausting. Plus extra time is widely abused. Taking identical standardized tests and mitigating their results with other information is also possible.

That mentality only works if you consider starting your academic career at Oxbridge to be essential for future success.

Just chiming in as my DS has just received an offer for maths at Oxford. When hearing the news he did say he wishes he’d only had to prep for one test, but in all honesty he found the TMUA harder than the MAT. Haven’t had his score yet for MAT but TMUA was a good average score - not exceptional but solid.

He is at a state sixth form who did run 6 weeks of after school prep classes for the TMUA/MAT but he said he mostly used Oxford’s free MAT Livestream sessions coupled with past papers. So largely self prepared.

Someone upthread made the point that the Oxford tests were free - we did not have to pay for TMUA either as I am in receipt of a small amount of UC, so there is a bursary system already in place for TMUA at least.

He did find the process somewhat intimidating although going to our nearest Pearson centre where he’d not long taken his driving theory test made it seem not such a big deal! And that was exactly the same set-up for TMUA as for MAT.

The interviews were the most intimidating part for him. He had 4 with 3 different colleges and whilst all the interviewers were perfectly agreeable there was not much small talk or smiling - straight down to business! Plus the pressure to make sure the tech worked. Luckily he enjoys talking about the maths (and doesn’t get much back from me in that department generally!).

Hardly essential. IMO the question ought to be how to select for what Oxford (or any university) is seeking. In the case of Oxford, as I understand it, that is some combination of very high ability and the potential to thrive under the teaching and learning system, including the tutorial system.

Some who are very highly able may not be suited to the tutorial system and that’s fine. Others may feel they Oxbridge is wrong for philosophical reasons - leave them to it.

Problems occur when those who could thrive and best succeed are put off by myth, stereotype or the burden of an extra set of entrance exams at a very busy time. If you are running the household while your single parent works, if you have no private study space, no reliable transport, etc, (if your family is homeless!), then every step of the university application process is more burdensome than those from other kinds of households can imagine.

Removing the burden of an extra step is then a move towards equity.

I would never suggest that Oxbridge is essential to an academic career, but this hardly negates the principle that both real and perceived barriers to application from some of the best and brightest should be removed.

I think intentions at both Oxford and Cambridge are largely good now. But the barriers are multifactorial with many causes beyond the reach of the universities.

I am very glad to hear about @GoodLuckBabe ‘s DS - congratulations to him!

I had not heard that STEP is the best predictor of degree class, @Needmoresleep , but this would make sense. It is by far the most cognitively challenging of the maths entrance exams and assesses a nice combination of cleverness and knowledge. The problems require a level of synthesis not seen in the other Maths admissions exams.

This is an interesting thread.

Yeah. I saw it a while ago, possibly on a medical thread looking at UCAT. Half a dozen aptitude tests were looked at along with their correlation to degree results. STEP was streets ahead.

Interesting - what kind of questions did all the interviewers ask? Did they repeat the same Qs or different for each college? Not sure how reparable the interview is, nor how equitable really, depending how it’s scored - eg. uber confident kids vs shy ones.

My understanding is that questions aren’t repeated frequently; otherwise applicants from schools with strong College or University connections would have a significant advantage.

PS Your comment about shy kids is spot on, and interviewers recognise this. Perhaps an Oxbridge admissions tutor can say more.

Beyond personality there is the question of comfort. Do you feel at home in, or overwhelmed by, the surroundings? That can make a big difference of itself.

This is one reason some Oxbridge colleges and some charities bring children to campus for various activities, but in terms of need it is like emptying the ocean with a bucket.

@Userxyd no they were all different and on different types of maths. He didn’t tell me details as they are not allowed to divulge as he understands it - but also I wouldn’t know what he’s talking about! He says they are looking for how you think, and crucially respond to prompting when you get stuck or go down the wrong path. So how well the tutorial system would suit you (by the point of getting an interview you have already proved you are a strong mathematician). If someone was super-shy and not able to communicate well in this context I guess it would be hard for them to score well at interview. But then they may not be well suited to the tutorial system where you will be working closely with a tutor and one or two other students and need to be ok with chatting maths things through? There are so many other really strong maths degrees which might suit them better. Not sure if that is all correct but that’s what my DS has told me he thinks.

Actually just to add, my DS is not at all uber-confident in general life. Very reserved with his peers and has never had a friend to the house for example since secondary. Very anxious. However he is confident with maths and with adults. (As his mum I am really hoping that next year, once his peers have become adults (!), then he will make some nice social connections at uni!).

They do also get at least 3 interviews for maths, each of which is scored and the results combined with all the rest of the admissions data. And there are two people in each interview, a professor and a post-grad/post-doc student. So I guess that helps makes it as fair as possible (eg if the applicant is terrified at the first interview they get 2 more chances once they have gotten used to the format).

@GoodLuckBabe I agree that for mathsy types there can be a big difference between everyday confidence and academic confidence (and if you really struggle with Oxbridge maths interviews you're not going to find the tutorial system a pleasant experience). FWIW IMHO, it's very likely your son will 'find his tribe' when he gets to university.

Cld also be a timing issue. STEP is sat after/alongside A levels so students will have matured compared to tests at beginning of upper 6th and it may be clearer who is the brightest of the bright by then.

I suspect not. It may be timed for after A levels to give maximum chance for maturity but it is tough, whenever taken. And possibly (not my area) more of a test of thinking skills than, say, UCAT which rewards speed. Cambridge apparently use it to reject half their offer holders.

STEP does require the whole of the AL and FM curriculum. And yes, Cambridge U sets STEP, marks it and constructs the national grade boundaries.

About 50% of Cambridge Maths offer holders do not make their offers and STEP is the main reason why.

That's absolutely true and my DS was one that didn't meet his STEP offer. He did say that STEP was the first time he'd ever felt challenged at maths and he really enjoyed the problem solving, sometimes pacing around at 1am trying to think of the solution!

He's very happy now and doing extremely well at Warwick!