Oxford to drop PAT, MAT, TSA, etc

[Muu9]

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/guide/admissions-tests

Thoughts? I think it's a bad move for physics, as the time-pressured nature ESAT simply isn't very good at spotting the deep thinkers most physics programs look for.

Interesting addition to this discussion. It looks like Cambridge will ask for TMUA for Maths applicants as well next year. (And still make offers with STEP.)

https://www.sid.cam.ac.uk/apply/subjects/mathematics

So they want maths applicants to jump through both hoops?? As if their maths admissions process wasn’t hideous enough with the over offering conditional upon STEP!

Why not? Any applicant to Cambridge Maths will also be applying to other universities (Imperial, Warwick, Durham...) using TMUA as an admissions screening test.

I suppose it does raise the stakes for applicants if all/most of their prospective unis offer on the basis of 1 test sat on 1 day in 4th term of A levels.

Offers will still be conditional on A-levels. TMUA is a screening test because far too many students are predicted and achieve 3 A* at A-level in Maths, FM and one other quantitative subject and still struggle on their Maths/Economics/CS degree course.

Thanks for the information, @Notanorthener

Perhaps Cambridge will use the TMUA to whittle the number invited for interview, or to make fewer offers. I always thought rejecting 50% in the summer was a bit ridiculous.

Being more discriminating at the offer making stage, which requires further objective evidence such as an Autumn admissions test, seems to me a good idea.

And that rejection of 50% in the summer must have annoying repercussions for Maths departments at other universities which it would be helpful to solve.

I agree with both of your points, @ceramique. In particular I think that this is very unlikely be an additional burden for applicants

Yes, TMUA (and ESAT and TARA) are going to get baked in to the applications system and there will be adjustments to school curricula to take account of them. As always, richer and more ambitious families/schools will provide more test prep and this will drive up standards across the board and people less savvy will cry foul. Same old...

We can hope that state schools or perhaps the AMSN/MEI will put more resources and effort into helping with this type of test prep (at least om the STEM side). It also seems a good initiative for the Sutton Trust or similar.

Otherwise, I fear you are right, and programmes requiring admissions tests will become more middle class than ever.

Technology offers ever more possibilities for distance learning and individual tutoring at low cost but all evidence points to the irreplaceable value of human interaction in teaching if students are to reach their fullest potential. So, yes, raising test standards will gate keep for the middle classes and international students.

It’s quite surprising that Oxford filters out 67% of their applicants right off the battle, whereas Cambridge only narrowed the field by 20% based on the TMUA scores then.

The TMUA in its current iteration is very new (second year) so the historical data that would allow statistical analysis of degree performance based on TMUA scores isn't yet available.

Has Cambridge Maths even been using TMUA yet?

From next year?

That is my understanding also, DEI. I was therefore a bit confused about your reference to the use of TMUA results by Cambridge. Were you referring to use by other Schools?

Those figures reflect the historical Oxbridge interview ratios. Do you think they are likely to change their approach in the coming years after introducing TMUA?

Something to ask on open days!

Thanks, @DEI2025

I don’t know; I hope Cambridge will become more selective earlier in the process, mostly using objective criteria.

It is fair to consider how much an applicant will benefit from the tutorial system and there is necessarily some subjectivity there. I think most tutors are good at finding diamonds in the rough, but below that high bar I do worry applicants who have been polished by a certain type of education are advantage.

TBF, many interviewers share this worry, but it is difficult to remedy.

Selection at 18 is an imperfect process. The problem arises when there are outlier high stakes universities such as Oxford and Cambridge that offer a qualitatively different educational and pastoral experience to other universities in the UK which are widely believed to confer future privilege. At the tier just below Oxford and Cambridge it makes less difference to life trajectories; imperfect selection is far less problematic when three or four university courses are much of a muchness in terms of future prospects.

However, some students (in particular international students) no longer see Oxford and Cambridge as the unquestioned glittering prizes of undergraduate admissions that was the case a generation ago. Maybe it doesn't matter as much any more?

I hope you are right, @Ceramiq

Oxbridge offer many excellent degree programmes and a pedagogical approach that can be outstanding for some. However IMO its (their?) outsized place in British imagination is based largely on the perception of social capital conferred. Much like the Ivy League in America.

I hope that is diminishing or, rather, equally good or better programmes elsewhere are gaining in social capital.

@poetryandwine The social capital conferred by Oxford and Cambridge used to be (new or more usually enhanced) membership of the English upper middle class. That has eroded over time; indeed, the active and well-publicised recruitment of students from a broader socio-economic base and the contested value of private education (another historic club for the upper middle class) have diluted the belief that Oxbridge degrees automatically confer upper middle class status.

Meanwhile some of the idiosyncrasies of Oxbridge undergraduate education, in particular the extremely short intense terms, the college model that can be claustrophobic for some, the teaching model that prefers tutorials over seminars, and make-or-break final written exams, are not attractive to some young people who prefer internationally recognizable contemporary standards in the form of semesters, a variety of assessment formats and more freedom in living arrangements. Universities such as Imperial or LSE, which have invested heavily in renovating their infrastructure, are perceived by some as more attuned to the needs and style of our times - as well as offering life in a major metropolis.

It is a common observation in the UK admissions cycle that a significant percentage of undergraduates at Imperial College London and LSE did apply to Oxford or Cambridge (Oxbridge) and were not successful.

Sure - but there are also plenty of applicants to LSE and Imperial, in particular international applicants, who do not apply to Oxford or Cambridge.

You are both so cynical! Have you seen the results of the London Academy of Excellence? Fabulous Oxbridge results from a “deprived” intake at a state school. This and lots of other London state 6th forms will see the streamlining of the Oxbridge/elite uni entrance exam process as an opportunity to systematically prepare their bright, ambitious pupils for these exams regardless of socio economic status.

It does necessitate though meritocratic selection, specialisation and economies of scale - and separation from political control, as most of the academically successful 6th forms in London are academies or free schools.

Sadly the current govt wants to stifle these sorts of schools and ban their expansion to other regions. Into this vacuum, money may well talk.

An interesting article in today’s Times about how Scotland prevents these opportunities in the state sector too:

Elite ambition is blocked in schools north of the border

https://www.thetimes.com/article/5ce43ba8-b177-4f92-8287-cd321677be01?shareToken=353b2bb9bcbf4f24e6566a35ae13114d