Is Trinity Hall Cambridge right about elite schools?

[mids2019]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

Interesting position but maybe there are those at Cambridge that think encouraging students from the state sector has gone too far? Wonder if other colleges will follow suit.

@WantMoreCake I haven't called anyone names. I do think it is grotesque that we have a system whereby some social inequality is reinforced by our education system. Of course it is and I don't see how anyone can really argue otherwise. People paying for a better education than others can afford? That's just wrong. And they're not just paying for the education itself but for the things they think it will lead to, such as Oxbridge places and elite jobs. When there is any sense that any of that is being taken away or shared with others, outrage ensues.

And I'm sorry, but saying 'life's not fair,' in relation to children being disadvantaged is about as lame as it gets. We don't have to accept this. The unfairness stems from the systems we have in place and the attitudes that they perpetuate. It could be changed if the will was there.

I suspect it will be the truly disadvantaged that would suffer the most - as also discussed previously, the displaced private school families will always try to get their DC into the best grammar and comprehensive schools any which way they can. This misses my point too. I don't just want all fee-paying schools shut. It would have to go hand in hand with all means of selection ended and everyone just going to their local school. The only exception should be for SEND, where appropriate. Schools aren't inherently good or bad just because. If the intake changed along with the whole attitude to education then we would have an entirely different system and not one based on who can pay the most gets the best outcomes.

Genuine question, are politicians seeking economic gain primarily, and short term one as such, to get re-elected, are they trying to influence elite unis to be more STEM focussed? To compete with the global tech and STEM arms race that is currently all the rage?

And what exactly is the duty of universities meant to be in this regard?
Where are we meant to sit as a country known for diplomacy, law and the arts etc as well?

And you don't think the quality of local schools would vary? Or that the price of houses would increase enormously near to the best ones? But that wouldn't be fair! Would you make every house everywhere cost exactly the same?

And have you ever visited a communist country? They probably are not the Utopias you dream of.

Oxbridge has existed for hundreds and hundreds of years and is considered to be excellent with a global reputation. Britain’s private schools have been around for hundreds of years slso with a global reputation for excellence.

All education gas been private until very recently. State education is a great good. But why should Oxbridge suddenly have to change for its convenience? And why should private schools disappear to spare its blushes?

Perhaps instead these successful institutions should inform state school practice?

You didn’t answer my previous question about whether you consider being able to pay for tutors a privilege

Of course it is, but it is not on a par with the current system we have. And if schools were better overall there may be less of a need for tutors. Those employed purely to get dc into particular schools would be surplus to requirements, fro example.

How about 2 wc parents from a poverty stricken background, went to shit schools, became wealthy anyway. Was that luck? They send their kids to a top grammar school because they live in ann expensive house in a nice area, both kids get into Oxbridge. Is that allowed? Should those children be penalised because their parents were successful?

Again, misses the point. No children should be penalised, or less advantaged due to the school they go to. It's wrong. If those w/c parents worked hard, great. But what about those who didn't? Or who did but bad luck in the form of ill health, poor decisions, whatever else took the wealth they had? An excellent education should be the birthright of all children. It's that simple.

@pinotnow

. I haven't called anyone names

Really? You chose the name ‘Sebastian’ as you thought it a typical posh name that you could sneer at. TBH I’m surprised you didn’t choose Tarquin.

People paying for a better education than others can afford?
You’ve obviously missed the threads where plenty of posters claim that actually state schools are better.

This misses my point too. I don't just want all fee-paying schools shut. It would have to go hand in hand with all means of selection ended and everyone just going to their local school.
Wow. Would you also ban homeschooling or UK children being educated abroad?
What other authoritarian rules will you bring in?

The future for them is still a lifetime of better opportunities.
The world of work doesn’t really give a rats ass about your degree but it sure as hell hires - and particularly promotes - in its own image across a whole range of sectors.
In my profession when I had a big job (before kids obvs, thanks sexism) I was very often the only state school kid in the room. The rest of the room was not outrageously talented.

@pinotnow calling people's comments 'smug and lazy' amounts to name calling in my book.
In your original post you stated you wanted all private schools shut and then you say you don't.
I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree as I don't see any valid solutions in your arguments.
And making out that my saying 'life isn't fair' was in relation to truly disadvantaged children is misinterpreting what I meant and I actually take exception to this.

Is private tutoring a privilege?

‘Of course it is, but it is not on a par with the current system we have.’

You are missing the point. Paying for education is paying for education. Is paying for privilege. Some can afford it some cannot. It wouldn’t ever stop. Would you ban tutors too, in your world?

Would you ban tutors too, in your world?

I guess she would - the state and only the state must be in charge.
Funnily enough, in 2021 China banned outside tuition:

Scope: The ban covers all core academic subjects, including English, with severe restrictions on online education and hiring foreign teachers based outside China.

I guess some students were being taught to think for themselves.

The closest we ever got to that "birthright" was in the 50s-70s when grammar schools were ubiquitous, entry was largely independent of parental interference, and educational mobility was measurably better. But the people who made a mess of that are doing their best now to do the same with independent schools.

Says it all..

💯 agreed..

@38thparallel Using a posh sounding name as a way of mocking the travails a poster referred in relation sport at public school building resilience is not the same as name-calling. As a teacher in a school in a deprived area I took exception to the idea that sporting highs and lows are more character-building than some of the stuff the children I deal with have had to deal with. Of course children from all backgrounds can and do face hardships and rise above them and I admire them all. But no one here has addressed the point I made about the assumption that challenges created at private school (such as sports-related ones) are inherently more valuable than hardships from the 'school of life' that many students from other backgrounds may face. You've all just got hung up on my facetious use of the name Sebastian.

In your original post you stated you wanted all private schools shut and then you say you don't.

No I haven't said I don't. I've been consistent in saying I do want them shut - but that's not all I want.

calling people's comments 'smug and lazy' amounts to name calling in my book. Well your book is wrong, I'm afraid.

And making out that my saying 'life isn't fair' was in relation to truly disadvantaged children is misinterpreting what I meant and I actually take exception to this.

Well, I'm sorry. But I do believe the state should endeavour to make life as fair as possible for all children and the current system of so many different types of school stands in the way of that.

@pinotnow
Are you aware that there’s a UN ruling in which a state monopoly on education is not permitted?
It’s to stop the state using education for propaganda.
(However I don’t suppose any country pays much attention to what the UN says)

Personally I’d like the state to be able to provide an education that meets the needs of every child. Currently it can’t.

@pinotnow You are a teacher? I hope that isn't true, but if it is I am truly delighted that my children didn't have to be exposed to the kind of naive rubbish you have been posting, even leaving aside your lazy stereotyping of 'Sebastian' etc.

@pinotnow I spent yesterday at an emergency MASH meeting for a student whose life would make a horror story seem tame. They have an offer from Oxford (AAA), but now being moved 120 miles away as that's the nearest foster placement. Some people don't know what disadvantage means. Oh and they hate teachers 😂

Where I am sitting plenty of leadership in the state sector (including at some of the best state schools) has experience from the independent sector. Either educated there or taught or led there.
Some of the large academy trusts have independent and state schools in them and are deliberately moving leaders around so they can learn from each other/try approaches from both sectors.
Lots of state schools are now independently fund raising.

@mumsneedwine not all teachers, just the ones my children would find laughably dim.

DS is so aware of some people’s intense dislike of private schools that when he’s asked where he goes, he gives the name of the school and then in the same breath says “because I’ve got two scholarships and my dad works there”. It makes me rather sad that he feels he has to justify it.

Taught in both sectors. Parents and students don't differ much as people. But opportunities from wealth mean it's harder to succeed if poor. All Oxbridge have tried to do is flatten that advantage. This hasn't gone down well with those used to being able to pay their way to advantage.
State school does not mean disadvantaged. Not all state school students get any extra consideration, quite rightly.

And there you have it. Can't debate so insult. All that expensive education gone to waste 🤷‍♀️

Ohh that is so sad. It’s tough but he needs to own it. Definitely shouldn’t feel he needs to justify it. I’ve been through this process. After all the bitterness shown in recent years, towards private school kids, I decided fck it. Fck you and decided to embrace it. Love the fact we can send our kids to private school. So so lovely compared to the shit comprehensive I went to, which very much looked like a ‘holding pen’ (to quote the copper in adolescence).

Not everyone who goes to private school is ‘rich’, just as not every ‘rich’ child attends a private school. Many have the luxury of living near to an excellent state school which meets their needs. I wish more people would realise this before making blanket statements about every private school and every pupil who attends them.