Is Trinity Hall Cambridge right about elite schools?

[mids2019]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

Interesting position but maybe there are those at Cambridge that think encouraging students from the state sector has gone too far? Wonder if other colleges will follow suit.

Agree, obsession with Oxbridge is outdated. There is a lot of awareness amongst parents about the mental health struggles in such high pressure environment.
Look at the interview experience of some of the posters in the oxbridge threads. I know for the fact, Asian children prefer to go to London and a lot of bright students don’t bother with applying to oxbridge at all! For a postgraduate degree, lot of them are heading to US ( at least till last year).
This is fairly a recent shift in attitude, may be they have seen the randomness and luck needed to get in to Oxbridge ( credit to Oxbridge, they have been open about their admission process compared to how it was) , have seen the experiences of children who got into Oxbridge, have realised that it’s no longer a massive advantage to study in Oxbridge compared to other top tier universities.

Asking here not as a threadjack but as so much expert knowledge.
DS goes to at bog standard comprehensive and is a passionate musician, aced Music GCSEs, doing music a levels, plays 3 instruments at high standard and is proactively running a successful music group at school as well as playing for a youth orchestra. Is he more or less likely to get a place at say Cambridge than a private school pupil with a similar profile?

It depends - what actual standard are the instruments being played, eg grade? What other A Levels apart from music are they taking? What sort of youth orchestra?

A young relative of mine was accepted to Cambridge for BA Music last year. She went to private school throughout, including having a music scholarship at a very musical school, and attended junior conservatoire and RCM from 3-18. She only plays one instrument and had good but not outstanding GCSEs. A star A star A predicted and achieved grades at A-level.

I have no idea about private vs state school probability of acceptance but you might be interested in a benchmark.

International students are not all enamoured of Oxford and Cambridge once they have been to open days at London universities too. And the Imperial/LSE/UCL brands are very strong internationally.

@humAIn. Music is different to other subjects because they are looking for very specific skills in addition to general academic excellence. From what you have put here seems like an excellent candidate. My dd was offered an interview on lower grades than that, unfortunately mental health situation meant she was in no fit state to leave home. She played 4 instruments to 7/8 plus voice at diploma, but alas life more difficult than music

peacefulpeach · Today 09:14
Perhaps selective private schools and grammar schools should stop advising students to apply to Oxbridge. Maybe some already are. Prioritise other top unis in the uk and across the world

I remember reading somewhere ages ago - not sure if it’s true or not - that Bristol decided to either boycott private schools or make the entry requirements far higher than for state schools, and the private schools got together and said ‘Fine. We’ll boycott Bristol” and Bristol climbed down.

Bright rounded private school pupils have lots of options. Increasingly they are looking beyond Oxbridge, in part because Oxbridge sends out strong signals that they are not wanted, but also because they are not convinced that Oxbridge offers the best education. You only have to look at destinations from schools like Latymer Upper over the past decade or so to see how international they have become. And indeed how London Universities, which London pupils used to be steered away from, are increasingly chosen.

Oxbridge may not be actively recruiting from academic private schools, but US Universities are. The message is being heeded. More Universities: Bucconi, Monash, McGill are in the mix. Not least potential students are aware of a potential level of chippiness from state educated peers, of the kind expressed on this thread, which seems to happen less elsewhere.

This may all be fine. If Oxford's primary aim is to be an agent for social change, the fact that top students from private schools are considering other options does not matter. It won't be a problem for the students, who see may see advantage in the broader education offered by the Ivies or the coming together of the international best and brightest at places like MIT, Caltech and Stanford. If Oxford and Cambridge's primary aims are to retain their positions as world class academic institutions, they are silly to ignore real talent on their doorstep for political reasons.

There was definitely some of that from Bristol medical school for a decade or so, a decade back. DD's year at her academic London private school was advised not to apply on the basis that the school never got anyone in and so it was a wasted line on the application form. The same message was given at other comparable schools. Because of illness she was not taking BMAT so was allowed one "stretch" choice. Bristol gave her a place, albeit in March just before the deadline. The first from her school in a decade and indeed only the second to be interviewed. She did not come across anyone else from comparable schools. A year or two later policy changed and Bristol now seems to welcome pupils from the well known independent schools. An insider take on the difference this has made to the strength of the cohort would be interesting.

"Not least potential students are aware of a potential level of chippiness from state educated peers, of the kind expressed on this thread, which seems to happen less elsewhere."

The "safe (upper) middle class spaces" are St Andrews, LSE, Imperial, Courtauld, Edinburgh in the UK. Bocconi, EPFL, ESADE, IE, EHL in mainland Europe. Upper middle class families from all over the world want their children to study in an agreeable setting with their peers, especially when the costs of studying have skyrocketed. There is an inherent contradiction between the UK discriminating against its own upper middle class students while simultaneously actively wishing to recruit international upper middle class students (the only ones who can afford to come) to its universities. International students are not impressed when they arrive at university in the UK and are placed in a flat share with British students who have no money to eat in restaurants and have never been skiing.

@Needmoresleep - is it really worth spending 1 million pounds (and rising) on a DC’s education just to make a point? Are the alternatives like Imperial, Warwick, Durham really so bad to warrant spending 1 million?

I mean if I had the million I would have just invested it for my DC. It would have grown and they would be looking at multiple millions potentially once 18 with a steady second income for life.

Those are the sums we are talking about for an elite private school education plus US uni.

So good for those who have it and a few extra million spare on top.
For the rest of us, state school is perfectly good enough. And whatever great Russell group uni comes their way is also perfectly good enough. It need not have some top “brand” attached to it. These kids are more focussed on getting a good job and a salary that pays the bills.

There is an inherent contradiction between the UK discriminating against its own upper middle class students while simultaneously actively wishing to recruit international upper middle class students (the only ones who can afford to come) to its universities.

Yes - it would be interesting to hear an answer to this question from someone who works in admissions or someone from the Sutton Trust.
The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

I am not following. Our kids were educated privately because we lived in an area where inner city state provision was very challenged. Most people we knew at NCT stage moved. Of those that did not, the largest number played the system by either renting in other catchments (very common), by tutoring for grammars or specialist music places, or by finding religion.

None of those appealed. DC did try for selective state places but were not offered places. Paying for education was the alternative, and was a real struggle but we don't regret it. Yes, of those I knew locally more from state schools got into Oxbridge, but so what. (The variation tended to be larger so there was a correspondingly larger number who struggled.) Oxbridge is not the be all and end all. Education matters. If we had lived elsewhere in the country it is very unlikely they would have gone to private schools, but we didn't/couldn't. If you look at the stats, private education is much more common in London.

I think part of the underlying debate is what people see education as. Is it grades and getting into Oxbridge, or is it broader. The most obvious difference between academic London private school and very selective London grammars is not academic or results, but access to broader education. Things like sport which help develop resilience and drive, as do drama and art.

FWIW US Universities seem willing to offer good scholarships to those who are exceptional regardless of the school type.

It is not just that. Some Universities (not Oxbridge) have picked up a reputation for attracting students who are there for the "experience". So large student flats and plenty of parties, with the kitchen looking like a bombsite and international students considered "boring".

International parents are paying a lot and their DC want to do them proud. London has a reputation for attracting focussed students and both the City and University are very international so less of a culture shock. Also the term pattern with shorter Christmas and easter breaks means that the Universities do not really close down during the academic year, something that can be a problem for those at Oxbridge.

A real advantage of US Universities are the constant tests and the a drinking age of 21, as well as the broader choice of courses and majors/minors. People do party, obviously, but some parents believe that their DC are in a better educational environment

”International students are not impressed when they arrive at university in the UK and are placed in a flat share with British students who have no money to eat in restaurants and have never been skiing.”

Since when is “skiing” fashionable in Asia? Is this a new trend? Do they have fake snow? What about Dubai? Have you heard they do it too now?

Honestly, it is always good to end a thread on a farcical note.

By restaurants I’m assuming the local kebab shop, Pizza Hut, or Chicken Tikka Towers should suffice all students ..

Always amazing to me how MN is full of users who are absolutely convinced their anecdotal experiences are better than those of us who actually teach and oversee student academic progress here 😆🤦‍♀️

A bit harsh, given that gap year Brits now earn lots of money teaching skiing to rich young Asians in Japan.

But no matter. I think it is reasonable to say that international students do prefer on some Universities because their peers, whether British or not, take their studies seriously.

Try going to the French or Swiss Alps over Christmas. There are plenty of rich Asians.

This is exactly the sort of chippiness that international parents (who are paying eye watering amounts out of pocket) want to avoid for their student children. Some UK universities understand that if they want to attract high paying international students to subsidize operations for home students, they need to orchestrate a student mix that is attractive to them - or they will go elsewhere. It's a very competitive market.

British universities are still educational establishments primarily, last time I checked.
Not meet markets for the uber elite to secure connections and a rich husband/wife.
It is what it is.
If you want to create an uber elite finishing school/summer camp then go ahead and organise it @Ceramiq - preferably in the Swiss Alps. I hear Klosters is nice at Christmas, but there was not much snow this year on the mountain runs. Bit of straw here and there.

Cambridge research renders speculation about whether "they know what they want/are doing" redundant. For the last five years, at least, they have known that they have been selecting for a characteristic (state school background) that is an independent predictor of poorer performance.

We are conditioned to equate school type with privilege; children in state schools are poor, those in independent schools are wealthy, privileged etc etc. While it is undoubtedly true that children in independent schools are skewed towards the higher socioeconomic end of the spectrum, students from comprehensive schools at Cambridge are even more skewed - 47% of students from comprehensive schools at Cambridge belong in the top SES quintile, compared with 35% of pupils in independent schools.

Furthermore, Analysis of student characteristics and attainment outcomes at the University of Cambridge showed that SES is not a predictor of outcomes, the perception that "poor" students from state schools have to work during holidays, or have problems that do not trouble their "wealthy" peers from private schools, that affect their performance is not supported by the data.

I haven't said anything about universities acting as marriage markets and I certainly don't think they do or that parents want that - it's very impractical to fall in love young with someone with a different nationality and visa status, let alone culture and language. International students often work extremely hard and do very well academically as a result. Their parents don't want them slumming it and being prevented from studying by rowdy flatmates when they are paying through the roof for the experience, they want their children to have like-minded friends, from around the world and they want academic progress.

It's all got very weird. I was young years ago. I went to a state selective in the 'top 'university town in the country. Loads of kids went on to Oxbridge from that school. More than from many of the lesser known private schools at thevtime. Now there seems a greater divide between stste and private.

@Ceramiq - there is no course switch involved from NatSci to History and Philosophy of Science. Specialising in the latter is one of the many NatSci pathways.

@humAIn your DC will be likely to get a place if he performs well at interview, rather than according to his school. DC applying for academic music (as opposed to conservatoire degrees in music performance) need the ability to analyse scores and unseen texts rapidly and accurately, to complete harmony exercises, and to have submitted technical work: compositions or harmony exercises. IMO if you are the kind of kid who takes theory classes over and above the mandatory G5 and enjoys it, and/or composes, this is more important than performance standard. I know a lad whose highest practical grade was 6, but was amazing at composition and was accepted.

I note that St Paul’s School (Boys) announced this week that 35 of their pupils are now holding Oxford offers. That’s before Cambridge offers are announced. These figures suggest to me that while Oxbridge may no longer be actively courting particularly schools it certainly doesn’t hurt one’s chances to go to one of them. Yes, the school may have some straight 8/9 GCSE/straight A star A level applicants without places, but as I've said before the same happens in the state sector as well. There's just not enough places for all the talented and hard working young people.