Is Trinity Hall Cambridge right about elite schools?

[mids2019]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

Interesting position but maybe there are those at Cambridge that think encouraging students from the state sector has gone too far? Wonder if other colleges will follow suit.

@Araminta1003 That’s the same in every intense career though and many women take minimal maternity leave to keep careers going. My DD is self employed so heaven will have to help her if she has a baby!

@Needmoresleep hard working and dedicated? Give over, they seem to be perpetually on strike.

And communication skills absolutely do not make up for academic shortcomings. What a completely bizarre thing to think.

I just read the Executive Summary of the first. I agree with:

"The growth in non-UK graduates means there are now a significant number of doctors in the workforce that are new to the UK. Overall, nearly one out of ten doctors working in 2023 had obtained their licence to practise that year. Many of these doctors were not only adjusting to UK practice, but also navigating a new life in a new country. More concerted, sustained efforts must be made to provide the induction, integration, and inclusion that are vital for them to thrive. Doctors’ career paths are also changing. Rather than entering formal training programmes, doctors are increasingly working in locally employed (LE) roles. Despite being the fastest growing part of the profession, LE roles are often poorly defined, with limited opportunities for progression. Without action, we will sleepwalk into a situation where lost legions of talented doctors are overlooked and undervalued, to the detriment of their own development and the provision of good patient care."

But whilst acknowledging the army of overseas doctors coming in there seems to be a complete failure to acknowledge the impact this has on the employment prospects for UK trained doctors.

For whatever reason the BMA and GMC seem focussed on training. Yes it is important. but why are people not talking about the fairly recent immigration rule changes that mean that it is next to impossible for a UK graduate to get a LE role.

As Prof Layton suggests (and the Daily Mail article I linked earlier) there is a whole international industry around support both for training and for recruitment to entry level jobs.

The thread was about Trinity Hall and the extent to which they should prioritise widening participation candidates. Bizarrely in contrast in the NHS have become the preserve for the rich or connected both from the UK and or from elsewhere in the world. And seemingly no one: the BMA; the GMC; the Government seem to care about our lost generation. .

@Needmoresleep I think the point is that medical school recruitment tried to widen participation by reducing entry requirements, and It has been a disaster.

Hmmm.

My daughter has yet to strike. Only people with jobs can strike. Though actually I can understand why people brought in from across the world to find that the pay does not go very far and that they are stuck in some rural backwater with no career prospects, might be unhappy. Or those stuck in LE jobs with no career prospects who see their salaries being eroded. The NHS has been able to keep wages low by bringing in cheap overseas labour.

British medical school graduates do have good and broad general medical knowledge. They would not get through without it. Medical schools now give more focus to softer skills because it was felt that these are what many older doctors lack. It is not an either or. Most have both. Most will also be observing that both their medical and soft skills are easily as good as many of the overseas LE staff they work alongside. Unfortunately current recruitment advantages experienced overseas staff over new UK graduates. Extreme short-sightedness.

That is a very broad generalisation. DDs first F1 placement was with a group, who points wise were probably in the top 10% of the national cohort. 16 locals, one Malaysian (who has since left for Australia) and DD. They were from all sorts of backgrounds. Very middle class to being from a fairly notorious inner city area, the first of their family to go to University.

This placement was very challenging. They pulled together as a group. They were all very strong and made good doctors.

None got onto training. I can almost guarantee with the ones who eventually do will be from families who have resources. I think this is a pity.

Do you mean you will never now donate a penny because of this new policy / attitude of theirs ?

@Needmoresleep Hasn’t your dd gone to Australia! After attending Westminster school? I think you have the resources!!

Oh yes, definitely! I was merely musing on the variety of career paths a medical vocation might take.

Yes we have the resources but, weirdly now she is in her mid/late 20s she would prefer to work rather than have mum and dad fund a gap year. At this stage in her career she needs experience, and Australia are willing to give good jobs and training to our young doctors. In the UK 50% finished Foundation in August unemployed. She has a year's contract in Australia which will give her fantastic experience. Then she has the choice of staying for training or returning and having a stab at getting on to training here. Australia pays doctors well and so she should have saved enough for a gap year.

There is a wider point. Do you really think it OK, or good for our health service that only those with resources can progress. What about some of those brilliant and dedicated young people from poorer backgrounds. Are we supposed to be telling them that training, bar a few exceptions, should be limited to the offspring of the consultants who belong to your golf club, or those from Asia who have the money to invest in buying the points. As for the rest do we simply tell them after eight years of study and work that they are getting above your station and that even for locally employed staff jobs, we prefer to recruit from Pakistan, or Bulgaria, or Nigeria. Anywhere but the UK.

You regularly contribute to medical threads and so I assume you have an NHS background. I continue to be confused why you are so determined that medicine in the UK is a great career. It will be for some, but surely you are worried about level of care you yourself might receive should you need hospital treatment. (Perhaps you have private medical insurance?!) If your daughter is worried about being self employed would you recommend that she retrain as a doctor?

Most patients will be seen by locally employed doctors, who have next to no career path. I would not worry about how academic a consultant is, unless you plan to see him in the a BUPA hospital. I would worry about how good the medical knowledge is of the SHO, that you actually see, and how they then keep up to date.

I keep.hearing about all of our doctors going to Australia..I'm starting to wonder just how many doctors Australia needs..Are all Australians either physically or mentally ill ? 😂😂😂

We, the Australians or the Americans seem to train enough doctors. So all need to recruit internationally.

The difference is that the Australians give recruitment preference to their own residents. Employers can only recruit doctors from overseas if they cannot find anyone suitably qualified locally. Soi they don't have the same issue with unemployed doctors. Traditionally they recruited Brits for jobs in rural areas or working in emergency medicine, both less popular with locals. DD has been exceptionally lucky to find herself on a rotation in the speciality she wants in a popular city and where the majority of her peers will be Australian.

The UK in contract no longer gives resident priority. This means that all vacancies are open to international applications. The jobs go to the "best". Often those with experience. New UK graduates won't have experience so are effectively crowded out. Luckily Australia still seems to rate our graduates and is happy to recruit them. New Zealand as well, and the US and Canada.

Further up the tree things change. International applicants are, by definition, more mobile. The NHS is not a great working environment and the pay lags behind international comparators. Increasing numbers will take their training or experience and move on, perhaps back home, to an international medical hub like Dubai, or to Australia/US.

If they could get jobs here, British graduates are more likely to stay for a full career. Yes some posters express concerns about whether the education is right, or whether those entering medical schools are bright enough. But I can't see why we assume that medical schools in Africa or Asia are better or that their graduates are brighter. Most people working in health care will confirm that UK resident doctors are normally more than a match to new recruits from elsewhere.

How come this thread has morphed into a thread about medical training posts in general and one single poster's daughter in particular? Emergency legislation is about to go through the UK parliament to prioritise UK graduates and those from abroad who have worked in the NHS, so the issues being talked about at enormous length are no more than a blip. There doesn't appear to be any problem lying ahead for this young person either, since they've secured the best job ever in Australia, so what's not to like? From my own experience, I would just say that I don't recognise the caricature of those who have managed to secure training numbers. They are not all spoon fed by parents with medical careers and they certainly are not all cushioned by money. Far too much disinformation on this thread.

I thought Streeting was tackling training. Not the wider problem of unemployment for those who just want jobs. Happy to be corrected.

I joined to counter assertions (OhDear etc) that medicine is a great career, so have no idea why the thread deviated. For many it is not, and thus useful to know, unless the ambition was always to work on the other side of the world. You may know better who about which stereotypes inhabit the training pathways, but for most getting onto to training is pretty remote. Jobs, actual jobs, are more important.

@Milmington It was a general discussion about how the subjects that Trinity were talking about are short of state school applicants and how dc from wealthier backgrounds can get the education and background required to make a stab at getting into Cambridge. Then we looked at whether parents help other students to ace interviews and applications to access the competitive courses and better paid jobs. Then the usual suspects joined because medicine was mentioned and then it’s all about them. Never ending anecdotes!

It is of course far more interesting to look at why these subjects have been sidelined in state schools and why Cambridge might think they want the best students and that background matters less than ability.

Yes, far more interesting. The fact that the young person in question went to an elite fee paying school and still has a parent being catty on social media about other young people who have been more successful is relatively interesting in its own right - but far less so, I agree.

OhDear111 the obvious issue is that sometimes background needs to taken into account in order to understand achievements and ability. My 3 DC went to excellent schools and achieved the highest possible grades. Did someone who went to a special measures comp and came out with one grade lower achieve better than them. Yes of course they did and had Oxbridge decided to take them instead as they were more impressive, I would have told my DC to get over it.

Hi @Milmington ! I'm afraid I've come to the conclusion over the course of the day that the daughter is entirely fictional. The descent of the girl from the 'posh public school ' (who would say that) to the Dickensian workhouse type hospital with no Christmas lunch is just too much like a Victorian wheel of fortune novel. There is even the happy ending of Australia to look forward to.
Like Dickens' own readers I'm looking forward to the next instalment.

Same Foucaultspenguin. Well said.

EVERY student we send to Oxbridge gets at least AstarAstarA. Offers are not contextual. They still have to get the same grades whether at my bog comp or Westminster. WP just helps get the interview (as they don't have the advantage of endless resources for those polished PS). They get these grades despite living in poverty and being taught in classes of 26 rather than 5.
Elite ? I am assuming this just means richer. Trinity must be needing cash cow parents.

@Scotiasdarling the DD is not fictional. She's a wonderful young lady who has worked her socks off to become a wonderful young doctor. You do realise this is Mumsnet, where proud mums reside ? Nasty comments.

And are they complaining that the Aus gvt isn’t employing enough locals? Importing all the foreigners!!

Really ? The grade requirements for humanities are AAA and if you achieve AAA you're in.

Emergency legislation is about to go through the UK parliament to prioritise UK graduates and those from abroad who have worked in the NHS, so the issues being talked about at enormous length are no more than a blip.

Fantastic news