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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Is Trinity Hall Cambridge right about elite schools?

1000 replies

mids2019 · 07/01/2026 20:19

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

Interesting position but maybe there are those at Cambridge that think encouraging students from the state sector has gone too far? Wonder if other colleges will follow suit.

Cambridge college to target elite private schools for student recruitment

Exclusive: Trinity Hall’s new policy described as a ‘slap in the face’ for state-educated students

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

OP posts:
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Needmoresleep · 14/01/2026 17:22

I should add an apology for the thread divert. I was just a bit 🤔about some of the posts (OhDear111) about how medicine is a great career. (Rather it is, but only for a minority in the UK.)

There is some commonality. The idea that a doctor is a doctor is a doctor and it does not matter where and how they trained perhaps reflects the idea that state school pupils always have more potential and that private schools kids are always over polished.

I also ended up laughing yesterday when DD, during one of her far too regular downloads, complained about the lack of critical thinking possessed by some of her F1s. (Because she is effectively on her own I am getting regular calls during her drive home. Inevitably issues around managing other people cause the most reflection. Today was about a 1-2-1 she needed to have and the approach she might use.) It seems that an open question "what do you think", "what would you propose" invokes panic. Yet the ability to discuss, debate and consult are what keeps professions safe from AI.

Marchesman · 14/01/2026 19:04

nearlylovemyusername · 14/01/2026 16:36

This is really shocking...

I would say that the situation for medicine is unsatisfactory rather than in any way surprising. Like Cambridge but preceding them, most medical schools downgraded the importance of academic attainment in their selection processes. Instead, there was an emphasis placed on "clinical aptitude" tests and on having an "understanding of medical practice".

Before medical students selected in this way graduate, more than 80% of them change their minds about working as doctors in this country. At the end of FY2, more than 50% choose not to apply for specialist training. Despite shorter working hours, greater formal educational supervision, and the highest salary of any degree, there have been 14 incidents of industrial action in the last two years, with not a single previous example since the mid-1970s.

Needless to say retention and recruitment have been problematic. This might have been resolved, at least in theory, by recognising that we are not selecting the right people for a medical career and returning to the old system based on academic attainment. After all, we know that prior academic attainment predicts performance in postgraduate examinations most strongly, and therefore career progression. Alternatively, the number of medical school places could be increased in the hope that more of them might stick around afterwards.

A lot of academics spent a lot of time setting up the present system, and who doesn't like more undergraduates and more universities? We therefore opted to add fuel to the fire. There are only 2-3000 GP and consultant retirals each year - which determines the number of speciality training posts - and 10,000 medical graduates each year, which will rise to 15,000 in the next few years.

Ineffable23 · 14/01/2026 20:25

Marchesman · 14/01/2026 19:04

I would say that the situation for medicine is unsatisfactory rather than in any way surprising. Like Cambridge but preceding them, most medical schools downgraded the importance of academic attainment in their selection processes. Instead, there was an emphasis placed on "clinical aptitude" tests and on having an "understanding of medical practice".

Before medical students selected in this way graduate, more than 80% of them change their minds about working as doctors in this country. At the end of FY2, more than 50% choose not to apply for specialist training. Despite shorter working hours, greater formal educational supervision, and the highest salary of any degree, there have been 14 incidents of industrial action in the last two years, with not a single previous example since the mid-1970s.

Needless to say retention and recruitment have been problematic. This might have been resolved, at least in theory, by recognising that we are not selecting the right people for a medical career and returning to the old system based on academic attainment. After all, we know that prior academic attainment predicts performance in postgraduate examinations most strongly, and therefore career progression. Alternatively, the number of medical school places could be increased in the hope that more of them might stick around afterwards.

A lot of academics spent a lot of time setting up the present system, and who doesn't like more undergraduates and more universities? We therefore opted to add fuel to the fire. There are only 2-3000 GP and consultant retirals each year - which determines the number of speciality training posts - and 10,000 medical graduates each year, which will rise to 15,000 in the next few years.

Surely this directly contradicts itself?

On the one hand you're saying we have too many graduates (2000-3000 training posts Vs 10,000 graduates) and on the other hand you're saying 80% of medicine graduates don't want to become doctors in the UK (rather than being unable to, which would make more sense, given your last paragraph).

To be clear, I'm not saying there aren't significant issues with how we're managing facilitating doctors' careers. I'm just saying I don't think what you're saying is internally consistent.

Marchesman · 14/01/2026 21:05

Ineffable23 · 14/01/2026 20:25

Surely this directly contradicts itself?

On the one hand you're saying we have too many graduates (2000-3000 training posts Vs 10,000 graduates) and on the other hand you're saying 80% of medicine graduates don't want to become doctors in the UK (rather than being unable to, which would make more sense, given your last paragraph).

To be clear, I'm not saying there aren't significant issues with how we're managing facilitating doctors' careers. I'm just saying I don't think what you're saying is internally consistent.

I can see why you might think that, but the 80% figure is from a 2023 study reporting the career intentions of 10,486 medical students, only 17.26% of whom were satisfied with the prospect of working for the NHS.

nearlylovemyusername · 14/01/2026 21:10

Ineffable23 · 14/01/2026 20:25

Surely this directly contradicts itself?

On the one hand you're saying we have too many graduates (2000-3000 training posts Vs 10,000 graduates) and on the other hand you're saying 80% of medicine graduates don't want to become doctors in the UK (rather than being unable to, which would make more sense, given your last paragraph).

To be clear, I'm not saying there aren't significant issues with how we're managing facilitating doctors' careers. I'm just saying I don't think what you're saying is internally consistent.

Unless I misunderstood something, I think @Marchesman post is consistent - we have way too many medical students than can progress further and also significant proportion of them aren't fit academically.

So instead of tightening entry requirements to make sure we only have the best ones who are suitable and only in numbers which can get placements, we lower the entrance bar and waste precious resources on educating youngster who aren't sufficiently intelligent or driven to become doctors.

And as @Needmoresleep says we also recruit en masse foreign doctors dumping salaries here and killing our own pipeline.

Agree with many PPs, it's one of the most interesting threads in a long time. Truly depressing.

Marchesman · 14/01/2026 21:14

nearlylovemyusername · 14/01/2026 21:10

Unless I misunderstood something, I think @Marchesman post is consistent - we have way too many medical students than can progress further and also significant proportion of them aren't fit academically.

So instead of tightening entry requirements to make sure we only have the best ones who are suitable and only in numbers which can get placements, we lower the entrance bar and waste precious resources on educating youngster who aren't sufficiently intelligent or driven to become doctors.

And as @Needmoresleep says we also recruit en masse foreign doctors dumping salaries here and killing our own pipeline.

Agree with many PPs, it's one of the most interesting threads in a long time. Truly depressing.

Exactly so, thank you.

Needmoresleep · 14/01/2026 21:17

Marchesman · 14/01/2026 19:04

I would say that the situation for medicine is unsatisfactory rather than in any way surprising. Like Cambridge but preceding them, most medical schools downgraded the importance of academic attainment in their selection processes. Instead, there was an emphasis placed on "clinical aptitude" tests and on having an "understanding of medical practice".

Before medical students selected in this way graduate, more than 80% of them change their minds about working as doctors in this country. At the end of FY2, more than 50% choose not to apply for specialist training. Despite shorter working hours, greater formal educational supervision, and the highest salary of any degree, there have been 14 incidents of industrial action in the last two years, with not a single previous example since the mid-1970s.

Needless to say retention and recruitment have been problematic. This might have been resolved, at least in theory, by recognising that we are not selecting the right people for a medical career and returning to the old system based on academic attainment. After all, we know that prior academic attainment predicts performance in postgraduate examinations most strongly, and therefore career progression. Alternatively, the number of medical school places could be increased in the hope that more of them might stick around afterwards.

A lot of academics spent a lot of time setting up the present system, and who doesn't like more undergraduates and more universities? We therefore opted to add fuel to the fire. There are only 2-3000 GP and consultant retirals each year - which determines the number of speciality training posts - and 10,000 medical graduates each year, which will rise to 15,000 in the next few years.

Causation comes into play here.

Before medical students selected in this way graduate, more than 80% of them change their minds about working as doctors in this country.

Is this because we are selecting the wrong students or because the students themselves come to realise that forging a career in the UIK is extraordinarily competitive.

At the end of FY2, more than 50% choose not to apply for specialist training.

T'was ever thus. Like many before her DD did not decide what she wanted to specialise in, until the end of F2. In order to move smoothly on to training at the end of F2 you need to be very clear from the get-go and start preparing your research and other CV enhancements. You also need to be strategic in your placement choice, so you have a relatively light load for the first couple of F2 placements. DD made the "error" of picking a Deanery still running the old contract and known to be chronically understaffed, and then picking demanding rotations. It means that she has bags of hands-on experience but no time to study and little opportunity to engage in research. The idea was to take an F3. Trouble is that the supply of short term contracts that would allow young doctors time to prepare has effectively dried up under the weight of open international competition. Whilst in the meantime, also affected by both international competition and the expansion in medical school places, application for training has become an arms race. No place for a bright, proficient and capable hands-on doctor. You need the high marks, the research and the competition prizes. Which requires absolute dedication sometimes to the point of selfishness, or good networks (daddy puts your name on his latest academic paper) or you pay. (£32,000 for two years at the BAPIO training school in India becomes a bargain if you get your UK training place.)

This might have been resolved, at least in theory, by recognising that we are not selecting the right people for a medical career and returning to the old system based on academic attainment.

From what I hear, resilience and stamina are also key. F1 was a whir of busy longs and nights. The system may have decided that DD should then go home and study but her survival mechanism is to go for a run or to play sport. She has survived the current and very responsible job, when four more experienced, higher-paid and more senior locums before her failed, because she is resilient. From what she has told me, the F1/F2s most likely to fail or drop out are those who suffer from anxiety. You may well be very academic and great at passing exams but if you are in tears three times before 9.00am you are not going to make it.

The big contrast is Australia who expect their trainees to have had good hands on experience. When googling DDs new employer I found a Reddit post where overseas doctors argued that the UK was a better destination than Australia because Australia expected their doctors to do "grunt work" before progressing onto a specialisation, in contrast to the UKs preference for high academic achievers.

we know that prior academic attainment predicts performance in postgraduate examinations most strongly

It probably does. DD went to one of those schools repeatedly mentioned on this thread and, when she has the time to prepare, can be expected to do herself justice. We also have the means to allow her to take time off or, as is increasingly common, take a Masters degree. Her peers during F1/F2 were mainly graduates of the local, well regarded medical school with quite an academic approach, who like her were applying with plenty of points so got the popular rotations, and importantly want to stay long term in a hard to recruit area. They were probably all within the top 10% of the national cohort but none got into training. What is wrong? There is certainly a mismatch between the medical school emphasis on communication and softer skills and the academic standards expected for the postgraduate exams. I think it is generally acknowledged that some other countries (Hungary being a random example) have much more academic and rigorous medical education. Bright UK doctors need time to catch up on the academic requirements. But equally overseas doctors who have graduated without apparently having seen a patient, also have a lot to catch on. (DDs mantra with her Gen Z F1s is that you can't diagnose from behind a computer screen. With very sick and unstable patients observation is key as their condition can change rapidly.) Should we be shaping our young doctor cohort to ensure they can sail through post graduate exams, or should we be reviewing a process that rewards those who can take a couple of years off to study and those that can buy their research/competition prizes. A London teaching hospital consultant neighbour says they are so exasperated with interviewing those with training numbers who are often un-appointable (as in not able to answer basic questions about their own research) whilst at the same time seeing talented locums and F3s who can't get that training number, that they have started a mentoring programme to help them get through the exams.

Alternatively, the number of medical school places could be increased in the hope that more of them might stick around afterwards.

Young doctors are not mud! The problem now is that due to the changes in immigration law those that want to stick around just can't. They can't compete with overseas doctors with a decade or more of experience, motivated by expedited family settlement rights, who are applying for and getting entry level jobs. I doubt there is any evidence that overseas doctors are better educated than UK ones. Some are good but others are worryingly weak. One was notorious for having to ask F2s for help. He apparently didn't know even basic things like treatment options for a patient who also had diabetes. DD had cause to raise concerns about another, to discover he had already been "moved on" from five other Trusts. There are also weak UK educated doctors. But that is not the point. In general the UK cohort is competent and able to hold down entry level staff level jobs. They should be given a least a level playing field when it comes to applying for jobs.

There are only 2-3000 GP and consultant retirals each year - which determines the number of speciality training posts - and 10,000 medical graduates each year, which will rise to 15,000 in the next few years.

I had actually thought 20,000 doctors were graduating each year, with 10,000 without work at the end of F2.

Regardless, is it sensible to fully open up our training to full overseas competition. There is a tradition of the NHS training overseas doctors but things have changed a lot since the 60s when those that came either stayed or used their education to make an important contribution in their own countries. UK training still has a cachet but there are so many well-paid consultant opportunities elsewhere that a much smaller proportion can be expected to stay.

We also have an uneven distribution. Training selection is undertaken nationally and the matching jobs are carefully counted out across the country. Ambitious high flyers, having got through selection, normally prefer training in big teaching hospitals with lots of research and international prestige. In one speciality requiring eight years training, DDs hospital had 16 training positions, ie 2 per year. Eight were vacant, leading to a two year wait for urgent referrals and consultants having to spend one night in four on call. High fliers will either wait for a job to come up in a more attractive deanery, switch during their training, or international graduates may decide that if they can't get the London teaching hospital they will go elsewhere and forfeit their place. In the meantime the department had good F2s they couldn't hire.

Realistically not everyone wants to be, or should be, a consultant. The NHS recognises this in their Specialty, Associate Specialist, and Specialist Doctor pathways, which would seem the obvious way of filling jobs in hard to recruit specialities or areas. DD seems to be covering an Associate Specialist role adequately, despite only foundation training and no prior experience of the speciality let alone the sub-speciality. Yet there is next to no chance, given the level of international competition, that she or her peers could land even an entry level job there. In 10, 20 or 30 years time we will realise we needed them and wonder where they went.

So like Cambridge we happily tell ourselves that achievement does not matter and that doctors from anywhere in the world are just as good as ones trained here. We know productivity is falling. Are standards slipping as well?

Consultants, including those who wrote her references, are telling DD that her Australian experience will be amazing. It is an area where the Australians are considered very strong with up to date equipment and organised hospitals. She likes the idea of working in a functioning health service, rather than one which is forever fire-fighting. Truth is though, that despite the huge investment, the NHS is not concerned about retaining her or her peers.

nearlylovemyusername · 14/01/2026 21:18

Marchesman · 14/01/2026 21:05

I can see why you might think that, but the 80% figure is from a 2023 study reporting the career intentions of 10,486 medical students, only 17.26% of whom were satisfied with the prospect of working for the NHS.

but... why did they apply then?
surely they knew that the only way for them to become doctors is via NHS? they can move to private world eventually, and this is incredibly lucrative, but to be able to make such move they'd need at least ten years with NHS?
or did they plan to go abroad immediately after?

nearlylovemyusername · 14/01/2026 21:30

@Marchesman , @Needmoresleep - everything you're saying matches my experience as a patient...
We need to send this thread to Wes

Marchesman · 14/01/2026 21:31

nearlylovemyusername · 14/01/2026 21:18

but... why did they apply then?
surely they knew that the only way for them to become doctors is via NHS? they can move to private world eventually, and this is incredibly lucrative, but to be able to make such move they'd need at least ten years with NHS?
or did they plan to go abroad immediately after?

That is a very good question. I think the answer is that they were not well informed.

There is enormous heterogeneity in medical schools. It is not in the interest of universities whose graduates are most likely to run into problems to publicise that fact.

Needmoresleep · 14/01/2026 21:41

Marchesman · 14/01/2026 21:31

That is a very good question. I think the answer is that they were not well informed.

There is enormous heterogeneity in medical schools. It is not in the interest of universities whose graduates are most likely to run into problems to publicise that fact.

There is also a huge range within medical schools. DD is in an unusual area where most go to their local University. When they get on the wards some are very good, others not so. There are a range of characteristics that make a good doctor. Academic ability is only one.

There are also a range of roles. DD is academic and now wants to work in an intellectually stimulating speciality. Some, including the area she had always thought she wanted to work in, would be too boring. The fact that some roles have been replaced by PAs more or less confirms that not all roles need academic high flyers.

Needmoresleep · 14/01/2026 21:45

nearlylovemyusername · 14/01/2026 21:18

but... why did they apply then?
surely they knew that the only way for them to become doctors is via NHS? they can move to private world eventually, and this is incredibly lucrative, but to be able to make such move they'd need at least ten years with NHS?
or did they plan to go abroad immediately after?

People don't know about the bottle neck. Look up thread and you have people insisting that medicine is a good career. (And why I posted.)

DD and her peers only realised how bad the problem was about a year ago. That message is channeling down.

The NHS is also in crisis and badly managed. This starts to become apparently during medical school placements. Not least because a favourite F3 position is to spend a year teaching medical students as a clinical teaching fellow.

nearlylovemyusername · 14/01/2026 21:49

this reminded me of something from a few years ago

When we were viewing secondaries for my DC we had a Y12 guide to show around. I asked him what A-levels he was doing and he told me it was biology, chemistry and something else and that he didn't like these subjects. I asked why he chose them and not something else and he said that his parents were pushing him to become a doctor, that he'd be the first one in family and set up for life. It was very obvious he'd be one of contextual candidates, one of the groups targeted in update Oxbridge policy.

This aligns with @Marchesman posts.

ProfessorLayton1 · 15/01/2026 07:49

Agree with Needsmore post, Dd has just started as F1 in a London hospital and works in a busy medical ward with inadequate senior support most of the times. Her seniors are mostly locum doctors and the quality varies a lot. Most days she puts in approximately extra 1.5 to 2 hours of work as she is conscientious and thorough. She wanted to do general medicine when she started her F1 jobs but has gone off the idea now !
I remember being busy as a junior doctor, putting in extra hours but it was satisfactory, was a good learning environment and there was hope that you will progress in your career. Almost certainly she will have to take a year out after F2 due to unrealistic expectations of the selection process. You do not need to be a first author or to have had a teaching degree or some random thing to progress to next stage! I looked at a random speciality criteria to progress to next stage of training and calculated the amount of money it requires to get these points - utterly bonkers!! If you have money and time ( which you do not have working in our broken busy NHS) it is easy to score these points and these points don’t necessarily say anything about the calibre of the candidates.
I interviewed for a maternity cover in our hospital recently and all the candidates were from Pakistan who scored really well in the pre interview selection criteria.
Dd is fiercely independent and is quite resilient but the system has nearly broken her in 4 months. One of our friends son who is also a F1 has cleared interviews for working in a finance sector with a really good salary and is planning to leave the profession.
Two of our friend’s children who finished F2 in August are without any jobs. One of them is travelling and most likely will end up in Australia and the other one managed to get a locum teaching fellow job.
UK government needs to act now before we loose a generation of good doctors !

peacefulpeach · 15/01/2026 08:11

This is awful to read, about medic grads, external recruiting, useless point systems, and the NHS.

One of my DC is doing A Levels. Not sure whether to do medicine or not. So is doing chemistry and Maths plus 2 non science, to keep options open (although understood not all courses accept no biology). After reading the above I’m thankful she’s not set on anything yet. Not good. Streeting has a lot to do.

Scotiasdarling · 15/01/2026 08:20

@ProfessorLayton1 we will lose doctors, or rather people with a medical degree, because there are too many emerging from medical school every year. Medicine used to be competitive at the point of entry, now it is competitive at the point of progression. The problem is that expectations haven't kept up. Now it is absolutely not a given that everyone with a medical degree will be able to have a career as a doctor, making it rather like law in that respect. Far more people graduate with a law degree every year than the number of training contracts available. They do other things. Somehow law graduates have grasped this but medical graduates have not.

You mention someone thinking of leaving medicine and going into finance, this is the sort of thing that more of them ought to be considering (not necessarily finance) The only caveat being that most other sectors are at least if not more competitive than medicine!

TenSheds · 15/01/2026 09:02

Have been lurking here to listen to all sides of this wide ranging thread. No personal skin in the medical game (DD is one of these unicorn state comp Oxbridge students thriving on a course on the Tit Hall list without the variously stated advantages/prerequisites some applicants appear to be obliged to have). But the brightest boy in her year, originally on a path to medicine at Cambridge, opted instead to do paramedicine, so he could get into work sooner and be gaining practical experience as part of the degree. I know another recent ish paramedicine graduate now pivoting into midwifery; maybe people are seeking alternative career routes. A third, international, acquaintance has already qualified in her home country, but progression as a consultant here seems to be an endless round of exams and placements. I wonder, how widespread the mindset of DD's friend is, that if you want to go into a medical profession, why spend longer piling up debts when you can be out and helping people sooner?

Scotiasdarling · 15/01/2026 09:10

@TenSheds ' progression here seems to be an endless round of exams and placements '

Just as well, don't you think?

OhDear111 · 15/01/2026 09:31

@TenSheds You seem to know young people who are not really wanting the top jobs because they are risk averse. No one normally doesn’t give medicine a go because they don’t want exams and prefer a low paid role instead. They understand the exams and placements matter. Midwifery is requirement to nursing so why not start with it? It’s a separate qualification so of course it’s more exams! Like most degrees, those who aren’t committed find some alternative degree.

Needmoresleep · 15/01/2026 10:30

If too many are emerging from medical school each year why are we importing so many doctors. Do you really think the solution to the genuine shortage is to reduce the number we train and import even more.

It is also worth clarifying that there are two issues which are quite distinct, but which keep getting merged. The first is access to training, an issue that both the BMA and Streeting have finally acknowledged. Perhaps because it affects the bright ambitious doctor who studied in Malawi and finds themselves in a one horse town in a dead end job with higher than expected living costs and a cold climate, every bit as much as it affects UK graduates. The career path is broken, and access to training is probably more likely for the affluent kid who is able to spend two years full time at the BAPIO academy in India as opposed to the junior doctor in a busy entry level staff job or on a zero hours locum contract.

(Fun fact. You can't do research between locum jobs as you are not an NHS employee, even though overstretch departments are crying out for someone to take on an audit or similar as you cannot access NHS data. It might be different for those working for NHS bank, but DD tried to register for NHS bank to find the process painfully slow and so she was forced to register with a private agency and, because hospitals have to use Bank first, take harder to fill posts a longish commute away. Busy emotionally-demanding job, long commute = no time to prepare for seriously competitive exams.)

The second, seemingly unacknowledged, is the intense competition for entry level jobs. Hundreds, sometimes thousands of applicants. Most will be unappointable but a handful of the applicants from overseas will have better experience, at least on paper, than the UK new graduate and so make the shortlist. One applicant for one of my London rental properties had applied diligently after work for six months for loads of jobs before he finally landed a year long contract. DD on an old contract and with five out of six placements demanding regular nights did not have that sort of time.

The intense competition for ordinary entry level jobs did not exist when DD and her peers were starting. It is directly as a result of a decision, possibly Covid linked, by Boris to first abolish the Resident Market Labour Test and to then list ALL doctor jobs as skill shortage jobs. (The BMA apparently hailed this as a brave move.) So equal treatment for all applicants wherever they come from. Then add in incentives in terms of family settlement and a qualification exam (PLAB) with a significantly higher pass rate than the one UK doctors have to sit and you have huge influx of doctors from overseas and unemployment for UK trained doctors.

In short, the problem did not exist when DD applied. . Then after having met some lovely Clinical Teaching Fellows whilst at medical school, she genuinely thought there was a career path that involved getting strong experience in demanding F1/F2 roles, and then a year as an F3/CTF with a chance to focus on getting through the professional exams. She now realises that through medical school and beyond her focus should have been on gaining the points. Her CV and references clearly show she is both academic (5 A levels!) and competent. But no, the NHS would prefer that she had won some, pay to enter, competition in Tegucigalpa.

The impact is starting to show. Disenchantment with medicine as a career, as per the stats above. Dissatisfaction with wages as the overseas doctors have allow the NHS to keep them artificially low. Huge numbers of bright and dedicated young doctors leaving: 25% in DDs deanery - to Australia alone, a huge proportion of the NHS's young talent. Others stuck in unsuitable, zero hour or dead end jobs because they have to take what they can get, reapplying for training for the second, third or fourth time.

We are quite angry that DD was left on her own to cover a senior, busy and responsible role. No feedback, no training, no welfare concerns, not even an invitation to the Doctors Christmas lunch (!). Every other SHO in her part of the hospital is from overseas, from all over. Each with a different medical education so used to different treatment protocols, including some whose knowledge outside their speciality is limited. Some with quite patriarchal attitudes. (Apparently her posh public school provided a useful training in coping with demanding males. Being young, less experienced and female left her vulnerable to requests to take on tasks that were not part of her role.) The decision to appoint someone more junior but with knowledge of the NHS and of the hospital was taken after four attempts to recruit someone from the right speciality at a more senior level, with the bonus that they are saving a lot of money. F1 feedback was that their experience/learning improved significantly when she arrived. All understandable. But why is no one from within the hierarchy not checking that she is not burning out, rather than treat an agency worker as a number who is utterly disposable. Why is the hospital not learning that locally trained doctors have a broad general medical education, are a known quantity and, if good, can hit the ground running.

There are a few silver linings. She gained a lot of learning in her first three months, though this is slowing down because of the lack of training/guidance. (A real issue seems to be people who have been in staff roles for a long time who have limited change to develop or to update their skills. It seems to be a very two tier system with an elite cadre in training roles and then the rest.) She has loved being senior and in charge so this has spurred her interest in taking the training route, even if it means taking a gap year or two to get through selection. She has had some very positive team work experiences, both with the nurses and the part-timer who works alongside her, and with consultants etc in other departments who have been very supportive. It has confirmed her preference for a specific specialty, and her feeling that Australia is more likely to offer what she needs in terms of immediate support and training. It has also given her early experience of staff management, and since her pay is increased to allow for the lack of pension contributions and leave, she has been saving.

Needmoresleep · 15/01/2026 11:07

OhDear111 · 15/01/2026 09:31

@TenSheds You seem to know young people who are not really wanting the top jobs because they are risk averse. No one normally doesn’t give medicine a go because they don’t want exams and prefer a low paid role instead. They understand the exams and placements matter. Midwifery is requirement to nursing so why not start with it? It’s a separate qualification so of course it’s more exams! Like most degrees, those who aren’t committed find some alternative degree.

Have you been reading the thread?

More talk of top jobs. When for the majority of medical school graduates there are no jobs.

You may know consultants or similar whose DC are going into medicine and climbing the ladder quickly. A willingness to take and an ability to pass exams is important. But equal access it ain't.

Parent who knows the system - check
Parent with a network that can land you a short term contract or the all important F3 in the right area - check
Parent who can advise on the right F1/F2 rotation including areas on the new contract with active or well regarded research - check
Parent who can fund a year out to take a masters and prepare for the exams - check
Parent who can fund the all important research or competition entry (it does not matter whether the research is published in the BMJ or something a lot more obscure, even pay to publish. Its the points that count.) - check

That kids who was taken in on a widening access scheme has no chance. The jobs do exist, but the hospital recruitment team are out in Nigeria as we speak recruiting. (According to the Times something like one in 6 Nigerian medical school graduates now work for the NHS. Depressingly it is looking as if we will soon only have one in six UK medical school graduates working for the NHS.) All that excitement about getting into medical school, all those loans and tax payer subsidy. Nada. I understand from a city recruiter that they have realised that medical school graduates make good hires. Intelligent, hard working and dedicated, with a wider perspective. Otherwise it is Australia or retraining as a midwife or similar. That kid who has more training and is more academic than a PA and who would be very content with a staff job in a local hospital, perhaps in a rural or hard-to-recruit area, has no chance. These are the jobs that are being recruited for overseas.

The people who make decisions about who should be the next generation of consultants are likely to be consultants. They will have a tendency to recruit in their own likeness. They had it tough so this generation should have it tough. They have very academic degrees, and there are questions about the level of communication and interpersonal skills, but hey why not continue with the same priorities. Not taking on board the ferocious international competition and the fact that medicine itself has changed with new techniques, AI etc. The comparative advantage humans have is communication. Our young doctors, whatever the shortcomings in their academic education, have this.

Araminta1003 · 15/01/2026 11:25

I was interested in the point raised about DC increasingly pushed towards Science, STEM maths, even if their ability would have suited arts/humanities etc more. So perhaps some of the newer medics who just wanted to help have the empathy and people skills, but not the STEM talent to pass the exams?

I think medicine is a field where you need both talent in STEM, a work ethic but also extreme resilience and people management skills. Not that many people are going to have all of those. It is quite a tall order.

There are also loads of female medics coming through now. If you want a family etc and your training is delayed it is really difficult. All of my female friends who have reached consultant eventually were delayed by many years compared to their husbands, just by virtue of having a couple of children and being female. If you are going to allow that many girls to study medicine you have to plan for the fact that the career pathway needs to work around their biology too. That is if the politicians want a productive society. We are told every day that all people with talent need to work, well society needs to work around that first.

ProfessorLayton1 · 15/01/2026 11:41

I really don’t mind the system demanding a very high standard to progress in medical career, having gone through the process working now as a consultant in one of the busier specialties in the hospital.
The training system is broken now and the point scoring system is not fit for purpose.
Google ‘ train the trainers ‘ course and the points it gives for different speciality admissions!
This is just one example, there is a whole lot of companies who are benefiting from offering such courses.
So you spend money, and if you have time to spare - collect points to strengthen your application.

Marchesman · 15/01/2026 12:06

peacefulpeach · 15/01/2026 08:11

This is awful to read, about medic grads, external recruiting, useless point systems, and the NHS.

One of my DC is doing A Levels. Not sure whether to do medicine or not. So is doing chemistry and Maths plus 2 non science, to keep options open (although understood not all courses accept no biology). After reading the above I’m thankful she’s not set on anything yet. Not good. Streeting has a lot to do.

Royal College surveys of consultants' opinions, in addition to papers like these, should probably be required reading for anyone contemplating a career in medicine:

https://www.gmc-uk.org/cdn/documents/somep-workforce-report-2024-full-report_pdf-109169408.pdf (the 2025 update is less useful)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7222458/

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/13/9/e075598

Exploring UK medical school differences: the MedDifs study of selection, teaching, student and F1 perceptions, postgraduate outcomes and fitness to practise - PMC

Medical schools differ, particularly in their teaching, but it is unclear whether such differences matter, although influential claims are often made. The Medical School Differences (MedDifs) study brings together a wide range of measures of UK ...

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7222458/

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