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Is Trinity Hall Cambridge right about elite schools?

1000 replies

mids2019 · 07/01/2026 20:19

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

Interesting position but maybe there are those at Cambridge that think encouraging students from the state sector has gone too far? Wonder if other colleges will follow suit.

Cambridge college to target elite private schools for student recruitment

Exclusive: Trinity Hall’s new policy described as a ‘slap in the face’ for state-educated students

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

OP posts:
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12
HowDidWeGetHome · 10/01/2026 15:07

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Wow. You are quite something.

pinotnow · 10/01/2026 15:08

😂Love it! Thanks for exemplifying for me, @ElliesHamster

ElliesHamster · 10/01/2026 15:08

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HowDidWeGetHome · 10/01/2026 15:11

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So explain to me again, where is the resentment in my original post?

pinotnow · 10/01/2026 15:12

You are the one with engrained resentment, @ElliesHamster , banging on about 'net taxpayers,' working out how many of your working hours pay your tax and wanting gratitude from other people for you paying your taxes! Wtf?!

ElliesHamster · 10/01/2026 15:14

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fairyring25 · 10/01/2026 15:23

Having read the comments on this thread, it has made me think that Oxford and Cambridge need to modernise their courses so that they attract the very brightest from both state, grammar and private schools.
I think Cambridge should be free to recruit who they think will do best so they can maintain their position globally. However, I also think that trying to get bright private school students to study classics or MML just because there is more space on these courses is strange. Oxbridge like everyone else should consider supply and demand. I think it is great that people can study medieval and modern languages but why are there so many places on the course when it appears that very few students have the languages background to study it.

ElliesHamster · 10/01/2026 15:24

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pinotnow · 10/01/2026 15:37

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Sorry, my mistake. You modestly said you didn't want a medal but you did ask for acknowledgement (not gratitude, fair dos) for 'what we've done for your child.' And, yes, you do sound massively resentful the more you post about it, and, actually, just a little deranged in this post.

No one is messing with your kids' lives, but everyone wants the best for their children, even those of us who have the temerity not to be net taxpayers. The entire system has been set up to massively disadvantage the vast majority of children in this country for years and years. Now measures are being put in place to somewhat redress the balance. This in no way messes up your kids' lives. Maybe (huge maybe) they won't end up going to Oxbridge because of it, but they are and almost certainly will continue to be hugely privileged thanks to their net taxpayer parents, and I'm sure they'll go to great unis and have great careers and lives. Good. Genuinely - I mean it, good luck to them. No one is resentful or bitter about other people's kids. We just want opportunities to be open for talented dc from all kinds of backgrounds.

Another76543 · 10/01/2026 15:38

fairyring25 · 10/01/2026 15:23

Having read the comments on this thread, it has made me think that Oxford and Cambridge need to modernise their courses so that they attract the very brightest from both state, grammar and private schools.
I think Cambridge should be free to recruit who they think will do best so they can maintain their position globally. However, I also think that trying to get bright private school students to study classics or MML just because there is more space on these courses is strange. Oxbridge like everyone else should consider supply and demand. I think it is great that people can study medieval and modern languages but why are there so many places on the course when it appears that very few students have the languages background to study it.

Courses like classics and modern foreign languages aren’t as popular as other subjects because pupils are increasingly not exposed to them at secondary level. Pupils are unlikely to develop an interest in classics, for example, if they are never introduced to them.

ElliesHamster · 10/01/2026 15:47

This reply has been deleted

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ScaredOfFlying · 10/01/2026 16:08

Wow. This has taken a turn. @ElliesHamsteryou’re not really doing private school parents any favours here #NotInMyName

januarybikethief · 10/01/2026 16:20

But still - why do we believe that 'cultural capital' and being well-versed in classical literature/the arts etc is so much more important than other kinds of knowledge and skills? I know that in the context of Oxbridge intellectual prowess obviously has to be at the forefront, but why must it go hand in hand with this very narrow definition of what is considered worthwhile knowledge and I don't think questioning that at least amounts to 'dumbing down.' Moreover, if students are reading subjects like English etc they will have to read widely and read around the texts they are specifically studying and if they are doing that thoroughly, as the course progresses they would presumably have increased their 'cultural capital' sufficiently to do well.

I wanted to reply to this because I think the idea of cultural capital is misunderstood by lots of people. It’s not the social window-dressing of having been to lots of plays and museums and so on that’s the thing that is valued when people talk about cultural capital. It’s the fact that having been exposed to more cultural diversity and experiences allows you to make more connections between things; and develop a sense of both the big picture of history, culture, thought etc., and also examples of specific cultural artefacts as well. Calling it “cultural capital” is really a proxy for something more like material to think with.

In arts, humanities and social science disciplines, part of the intellectual discipline is in that big picture thinking - the networks of influences, philosophies and connections that generate ideas and arguments about the “big questions” of the discipline. And part of the discipline is in the detail - the evidence for those big ideas. You need both the big picture and the detail in order to advance an argument, and then back it up with evidence. The more you add to your knowledge, the more you can generate those ideas, and understand the big picture. “Cultural capital” isn’t valued just as some kind of shibboleth or finishing-school polish. It’s really a proxy for saying “knowledge about”.

If you’ve been exposed to lots of different ideas, plays, music and art, then you can start to get a sense of, for example: what is characteristic about seventeenth century culture compared to eighteenth century culture? What styles are fashionable in later twentieth century art compared to early twentieth century art, and why? What are the key features of baroque culture as opposed to classical culture? What are the connections between Shakespeare and Greek drama? Obviously, the more you know about, the easier it becomes for you to start interrogating those questions. People with the talent for these disciplines don’t be necessarily need tons of material to start doing this, but they do need some; and the school and exam system alone doesn’t really provide that much of it any more. Even A-level English only requires one Shakespeare play these days. A-level languages no longer require a significant literature component (I had to do Maupassant, Flaubert, Francoise Sagan and Zola’s Germinal (one of the weightiest French novels ever!) for my French A-level; my niece has read one slim YA French novel for hers). State schools no longer expose students to significant amounts of cultural history (and, of course, some never did). But our wider culture used to at least have some sense that particular poets, artists, writers, composers and so on were important to know about: now, despite much easier access to art and culture of all kinds, many kids just aren’t encouraged to explore what is now thought of as “elite” culture rather than our shared cultural heritage.

These things aren’t important just for social showing off: they’re the material that you begin to develop your intellectual skills with. I’m not romanticising the past, here: there has always been a sharp social divide between those with access to “cultural capital” and those without. But the school curriculum and educational values of postwar culture did actually value the idea of education for its own sake, and art, music, languages, history etc. as an important part of life. Now, much of that consensus has been replaced by valuing only financial capital as a form of success. (No doubt that’s been massively accelerated by tuition fees, the commercialism of everyday life, and so on.) But it’s really notable that you can’t actually easily any more develop the skills required for many traditional academic humanities disciplines just through the school curriculum and popular culture. It doesn’t any longer provide you with a deep sense of what the connections and ideas are that are relevant.

STEM subjects can simply take students with the highest marks in their subjects who can answer science and maths problems; but humanities disciplines are going to be asking applicants things like: Do states create nations, or nations states? Why might Shakespeare refer to a mixture of Christian and Classical gods in some of his plays? Does the geography of Greece have any relationship to why Western philosophy first developed there, and if so, why? Why do you think Surrealist art developed at the time it did? Is studying history a social good, and why? Should law aim to improve life for the population as a whole? What are the connections you perceive between mathematics and art?

And applicants who can think in both broad and deep terms about questions like that are the ones Oxbridge is looking for. They don’t need loads of preparation. But they do need some, and some material to think with. State school applicants can do a lot by just reading around their subject, watching some plays on TV, going to our excellent free art galleries in any part of the country, etc. But it’s not unusual to find applicants who don’t do any reading outside of their school subjects at all. This doesn’t mean they can’t show the skills required to get in; but it makes it a lot more difficult.

Finally, though, most of our applicants and offers are from state schools: so we clearly are able to find good candidates. The numbers and the calibre of these are really declining overall, though, both from state and private sectors, as the education system pushes for STEM subjects above all. Talented kids who could be doing languages, history of art or Classics are being redirected to economics, sciences, business or computing (even if they aren’t really that good at them). But the jury is still out on whether those subjects actually do lead to better jobs and more money. Most STEM grads don’t go into STEM jobs, after all.

ElliesHamster · 10/01/2026 16:20

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

HundredMilesAnHour · 10/01/2026 16:56

DogEard · 10/01/2026 14:46

"Further Maths (or Computer Science) requires different strengths / aptitudes to MFL. Is there a published league table for aptitude values that shows abstract problem solving is considered more valuable than communication skills?" from post above

The jobs market does that @HundredMilesAnHour -

In both the demand and pay on offer.

Not in my experience. We don’t differentiate between a MFL grad or a FM/CS grad in terms of pay or indeed demand. We value MFL/FM/CS equally because we value a diverse skill set and a diverse workforce. (And I recruit globally for my division in Financial Services covering Europe, Middle East, Americas & Asia).

Ineffable23 · 10/01/2026 17:07

januarybikethief · 10/01/2026 16:20

But still - why do we believe that 'cultural capital' and being well-versed in classical literature/the arts etc is so much more important than other kinds of knowledge and skills? I know that in the context of Oxbridge intellectual prowess obviously has to be at the forefront, but why must it go hand in hand with this very narrow definition of what is considered worthwhile knowledge and I don't think questioning that at least amounts to 'dumbing down.' Moreover, if students are reading subjects like English etc they will have to read widely and read around the texts they are specifically studying and if they are doing that thoroughly, as the course progresses they would presumably have increased their 'cultural capital' sufficiently to do well.

I wanted to reply to this because I think the idea of cultural capital is misunderstood by lots of people. It’s not the social window-dressing of having been to lots of plays and museums and so on that’s the thing that is valued when people talk about cultural capital. It’s the fact that having been exposed to more cultural diversity and experiences allows you to make more connections between things; and develop a sense of both the big picture of history, culture, thought etc., and also examples of specific cultural artefacts as well. Calling it “cultural capital” is really a proxy for something more like material to think with.

In arts, humanities and social science disciplines, part of the intellectual discipline is in that big picture thinking - the networks of influences, philosophies and connections that generate ideas and arguments about the “big questions” of the discipline. And part of the discipline is in the detail - the evidence for those big ideas. You need both the big picture and the detail in order to advance an argument, and then back it up with evidence. The more you add to your knowledge, the more you can generate those ideas, and understand the big picture. “Cultural capital” isn’t valued just as some kind of shibboleth or finishing-school polish. It’s really a proxy for saying “knowledge about”.

If you’ve been exposed to lots of different ideas, plays, music and art, then you can start to get a sense of, for example: what is characteristic about seventeenth century culture compared to eighteenth century culture? What styles are fashionable in later twentieth century art compared to early twentieth century art, and why? What are the key features of baroque culture as opposed to classical culture? What are the connections between Shakespeare and Greek drama? Obviously, the more you know about, the easier it becomes for you to start interrogating those questions. People with the talent for these disciplines don’t be necessarily need tons of material to start doing this, but they do need some; and the school and exam system alone doesn’t really provide that much of it any more. Even A-level English only requires one Shakespeare play these days. A-level languages no longer require a significant literature component (I had to do Maupassant, Flaubert, Francoise Sagan and Zola’s Germinal (one of the weightiest French novels ever!) for my French A-level; my niece has read one slim YA French novel for hers). State schools no longer expose students to significant amounts of cultural history (and, of course, some never did). But our wider culture used to at least have some sense that particular poets, artists, writers, composers and so on were important to know about: now, despite much easier access to art and culture of all kinds, many kids just aren’t encouraged to explore what is now thought of as “elite” culture rather than our shared cultural heritage.

These things aren’t important just for social showing off: they’re the material that you begin to develop your intellectual skills with. I’m not romanticising the past, here: there has always been a sharp social divide between those with access to “cultural capital” and those without. But the school curriculum and educational values of postwar culture did actually value the idea of education for its own sake, and art, music, languages, history etc. as an important part of life. Now, much of that consensus has been replaced by valuing only financial capital as a form of success. (No doubt that’s been massively accelerated by tuition fees, the commercialism of everyday life, and so on.) But it’s really notable that you can’t actually easily any more develop the skills required for many traditional academic humanities disciplines just through the school curriculum and popular culture. It doesn’t any longer provide you with a deep sense of what the connections and ideas are that are relevant.

STEM subjects can simply take students with the highest marks in their subjects who can answer science and maths problems; but humanities disciplines are going to be asking applicants things like: Do states create nations, or nations states? Why might Shakespeare refer to a mixture of Christian and Classical gods in some of his plays? Does the geography of Greece have any relationship to why Western philosophy first developed there, and if so, why? Why do you think Surrealist art developed at the time it did? Is studying history a social good, and why? Should law aim to improve life for the population as a whole? What are the connections you perceive between mathematics and art?

And applicants who can think in both broad and deep terms about questions like that are the ones Oxbridge is looking for. They don’t need loads of preparation. But they do need some, and some material to think with. State school applicants can do a lot by just reading around their subject, watching some plays on TV, going to our excellent free art galleries in any part of the country, etc. But it’s not unusual to find applicants who don’t do any reading outside of their school subjects at all. This doesn’t mean they can’t show the skills required to get in; but it makes it a lot more difficult.

Finally, though, most of our applicants and offers are from state schools: so we clearly are able to find good candidates. The numbers and the calibre of these are really declining overall, though, both from state and private sectors, as the education system pushes for STEM subjects above all. Talented kids who could be doing languages, history of art or Classics are being redirected to economics, sciences, business or computing (even if they aren’t really that good at them). But the jury is still out on whether those subjects actually do lead to better jobs and more money. Most STEM grads don’t go into STEM jobs, after all.

I think this is a really good point. Reducing the amount of literature we expect people to consume risks creating an ever widening cultural gap.

For example, I did a Latin GCSE and was expected to read and answer questions on about 10 chapters of the Aeneid, with the Aeneid being in the original Latin for the answer (thankfully I was allowed to answer in English). The Latin GCSE was then altered so you got a Latin language and a Latin Literature GCSE for covering the same content, so someone who did Latin language would have a qualification in the subject without ever touching the literature.

I was also only able to even study Latin because my French teacher has decided to study it in his spare time, and then he gave up his spare time to teach us, in about 90 minutes a week. He also made us read the entirety of the Aeneid in spite of the fact we were only going to be examined on a portion of it because he felt you needed the wider context to be able to appreciate it more fully.

I am equally, acutely aware that the amount of literature I have read/absorbed is sorely inadequate. I read some of "the classics" as a teenager, but I haven't read any Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky, I think I have seen or read 7 Shakespeare plays, none of the key Greek works.

So that forms pools of ignorance, and is in spite of having a household that (for its income) was extremely facilitative of me expanding my cultural capital - with museum visits, making sure I went on any trips to plays I could, even when my class wasn't studying those plays, making sure I had access to the library, getting a newspaper delivered.

I have started watching some of the Royal Ballet and Opera's cinema recordings in the last few years and realise that's yet another area of culture where I had very limited exposure as a child.

But actually when I look at my knowledge, amongst a lot of my friends I have more cultural capital than a huge proportion of them. So if I feel like I have a gulf of knowledge compared to some people, realistically that gulf is even wider compared to the majority of the population.

And I do think that that impacts people's ability to make and follow through an argument logically, and also even one's ability to consume long form prose - it's a skill that is lost if you don't practise.

Araminta1003 · 10/01/2026 17:27

The connections you refer to @januarybikethief - I do not think it is just “cultural capital”. Children exposed to different languages and music etc early may well be building additional pathways in their brain and improving their IQ in a very long term manner. Just like children well fed, spoken to regularly and exercised may trigger more growth hormone. Stress and poor nutrition having the opposite effect.
Unfortunately what a child experiences in the womb, in their early lives, in the family, educationally has long term positive and negative impacts both on their physical health, mental and emotional healthy but probably also their IQ. Although apparently we are not meant to say that. So apparently you are born bright and stay that way. I do not think you are, I think it really is largely a matter of education and experiences.

People are not just valuing education to pass exams and get a job, it is far more than that. Nor is it just to get a seat at the table at White’s because you went to public school.
The question for state education is how much is the minimum to provide each child and as early as possible to enable them to form good neural pathways, in a long term manner. But a child born into huge privilege with the very best of education all the way through will possibly be getting more value added on those neural pathways. Just like they may well grow taller.

TheaBrandt1 · 10/01/2026 17:30

Intrigued as to what the deleted posts said!

januarybikethief · 10/01/2026 18:00

Ineffable23 · 10/01/2026 17:07

I think this is a really good point. Reducing the amount of literature we expect people to consume risks creating an ever widening cultural gap.

For example, I did a Latin GCSE and was expected to read and answer questions on about 10 chapters of the Aeneid, with the Aeneid being in the original Latin for the answer (thankfully I was allowed to answer in English). The Latin GCSE was then altered so you got a Latin language and a Latin Literature GCSE for covering the same content, so someone who did Latin language would have a qualification in the subject without ever touching the literature.

I was also only able to even study Latin because my French teacher has decided to study it in his spare time, and then he gave up his spare time to teach us, in about 90 minutes a week. He also made us read the entirety of the Aeneid in spite of the fact we were only going to be examined on a portion of it because he felt you needed the wider context to be able to appreciate it more fully.

I am equally, acutely aware that the amount of literature I have read/absorbed is sorely inadequate. I read some of "the classics" as a teenager, but I haven't read any Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky, I think I have seen or read 7 Shakespeare plays, none of the key Greek works.

So that forms pools of ignorance, and is in spite of having a household that (for its income) was extremely facilitative of me expanding my cultural capital - with museum visits, making sure I went on any trips to plays I could, even when my class wasn't studying those plays, making sure I had access to the library, getting a newspaper delivered.

I have started watching some of the Royal Ballet and Opera's cinema recordings in the last few years and realise that's yet another area of culture where I had very limited exposure as a child.

But actually when I look at my knowledge, amongst a lot of my friends I have more cultural capital than a huge proportion of them. So if I feel like I have a gulf of knowledge compared to some people, realistically that gulf is even wider compared to the majority of the population.

And I do think that that impacts people's ability to make and follow through an argument logically, and also even one's ability to consume long form prose - it's a skill that is lost if you don't practise.

Yes, definitely. For my French A-level, as I mentioned above, we were reading really weighty and significant books. For my English A-level we were reading Milton, Donne, Austen, Chaucer, Browning, and two or three Shakespeare plays - and that was in a bog standard Northern comp in the early 90s. Now the average English A-level curriculum is something like an Ian McEwan novel, Othello, Carol Ann Duffy and “OCR poetry anthology about love”. There’s very little literature content left in the French A-level. Of course students are being left without enough material to really develop their ideas about culture and the humanities.

(I also happened to do Maths in the old JMB format; and when my school switched to the modular OCR maths syllabus I could then also instantly do half of the OCR Further Maths content as well, without any additional syllabus coverage, which to anyone griping about Maths students being brighter, tells you a lot about the Further Maths syllabus these days).

The paradox is that people now have almost instant access to huge amounts of cultural material. I was an auto-didact in a poor quality comp, and I took myself to the bloody library every weekend to read as much as I could. I asked teachers for reading recommendations, I took the bus to the local art galleries, I went to plays on cheap £5 tickets with my friends. These days students don’t even have to do that. They can be doing an EPQ on the nineteenth century Gothic novel, and in a few moments they can open Wikipedia and Project Gutenberg and read more recommendations for, and full texts of nineteenth century Gothic novels than anybody could imagine. They could sign up for free language materials online. They could look up images of great art. But they overwhelmingly don’t. I don’t know why, but they really don’t. There are oodles of good BBC serials, classical concerts and history documentaries on iPlayer, pirated French language films on YouTube, more cultural content out there to discover than I could have ever imagined having access to as a teenager. Any bright but impoverished state educated student could easily attempt to redress the imbalance in their cultural experience just with an internet connection and an hour a day. It’s never been easier to access culture, history and art in ways that previous eras could not have dreamt of.

Yet many applicants arrive at interview with a really impoverished idea of the humanities, and I’m not sure why, apart from the fact that our entire culture has become very distinctly anti-intellectual. The bottom-of-the-barrel ubiquitous social media and mass entertainment content is just slop, crap and drivel, and yet teenagers with phones lap it up (my DD also has to be prevented from gluing herself to absolute drivel on YouTube and social media because she would watch it all day if she could). The vast majority of social media and mass media content is absolutely dire, mind-sapping pap that’s rotting all our society. Yet we pretend saying that is being somehow elitist.

I know I’ve gone off on one a bit here, but we aren’t doing anybody any favours by saying “oh well if nobody does these things any more then Cambridge should modernise its courses”. What to, YouTube Studies and computer game design, so that we can all generate yet more meaningless crap all over the place, and pretend it’s just the same as a baroque concerto or a Zola novel, because we must all get with the times? (People don’t like that either! Just look at the whinging about “mickey mouse” degrees and so on. Yet try to suggest that young people should be encouraged to study Latin and music in state schools and you’ll get everyone complaining as well that we should all just be studying computing and STEM.)

OhDear111 · 10/01/2026 18:29

I do think we have reduced content for many exams and courses in order to ramp up pass levels. However dc are not brighter. They just pick easier subjects. They don’t want to bother with MFLs or music. They are not interested in anything cultural and don’t have much to talk about. In short they pass exams, but aren’t educated.

I did O levels in the early 1970s. For English Lit we studied Silas Marner, Chaucer (Nun’s Priest’s Tale) and Macbeth. Also we had studied poems and other Shakespeare plays. This was far more complex than GCSEs of today.

RampantIvy · 10/01/2026 18:30

For my French A-level, as I mentioned above, we were reading really weighty and significant books

So did I - Balzac, Voltaire, Mauriac, Racine and Moliere.

While I didn't enjoy some of the books I developed a love for classic French literature.

DogEard · 10/01/2026 18:32

HundredMilesAnHour · 10/01/2026 16:56

Not in my experience. We don’t differentiate between a MFL grad or a FM/CS grad in terms of pay or indeed demand. We value MFL/FM/CS equally because we value a diverse skill set and a diverse workforce. (And I recruit globally for my division in Financial Services covering Europe, Middle East, Americas & Asia).

If ML is a golden ticket to the job of your dreams, why don't more people do that then? Of course financial services firms also need a back office and HR function and admin people. The population of tech entrepreneurs, AI bods, Google or IBM staff and even star traders who did French and German is possibly not huge though. Linguists do Masters in Finance or Law to open some doors because they don't make it through the screening rounds for front office grad roles otherwise or try to spin their cvs eg with the management studies tripos that C offers. It's doable, just harder.

EBearhug · 10/01/2026 19:19

I didn't do any literature for my French A-level, because we had a new boy-friendly syllabus, so we had to talk about social problems in the news etc. Still slightly bitter, but it's only been 35 years, so I expect I'll be over it soon...

OhDear111 · 10/01/2026 19:20

@DogEard You are making the assumption that all economics, finance etc grads all get great highly paid jobs, they don’t. Neither could most of them do MFLs. Grads have different skills and no larger organisation should recruit one dimensionally.

Marchesman · 10/01/2026 19:30

Another76543 · 10/01/2026 15:38

Courses like classics and modern foreign languages aren’t as popular as other subjects because pupils are increasingly not exposed to them at secondary level. Pupils are unlikely to develop an interest in classics, for example, if they are never introduced to them.

Classics and MFL are unpopular choices with pupils at secondary school because they are labour intensive, and other subjects offer a more reliable route to the A/Astars that are required by selective universities. Schools have incentives not to offer them for the same reasons.

There is also for some impenetrable reason, a pervasive hostility towards rote learning in state schools. The EBacc went some way towards reversing its effects but it has been on the receiving end of relentless criticism for "stifling creativity".

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