Is Trinity Hall Cambridge right about elite schools?

[mids2019]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

Interesting position but maybe there are those at Cambridge that think encouraging students from the state sector has gone too far? Wonder if other colleges will follow suit.

How depressing, particularly as it says they are 'targeting' students from elite schools. Surely such pupils don't need targeting in this way if, as this Marcus Tomalin quite troubling puts it, they 'align [so] well' with the expectations and ideals of Cambridge as this would surely be apparent at interview and they would be highly likely to be offered places anyway. Certainly, my ds, who has started at Oxford this year, has been taken aback by how many students are from London, including several from one of the schools listed. I don't think this policy is needed and talk of 'aligning' does imply they want a certain type of student and that some staff don't like having to teach students who don't fit that 'type'. Obviously Oxbridge should be for the intellectual elites of the country but saying they want these pupils because they 'arrive' with the right 'expertise and interests,' indicates they don't expect to have to do anything whatsoever to develop students and just want to keep the 'old boys' culture pure and intact. I think it very significant that the move was strongly opposed by many.

In music, languages and classics. Where Gove did his worst work to reduce to shreds the state schools that teach these subjects at all. I don’t think this is a university level problem.

My understanding is that for certain subjects they want to target schools that teach them to a high standard and convince students that it is "better" to study Classics at Cambridge then Economics at ..... and at least historically they are not wrong (not sure whether this is true for St. Paul's girls but definitely for Eton). I am a bit surprised that Music has difficulties recruiting as I would have thought there are plenty of state educated pupils that play an instrument to a high standard.

Looking at DD’s grammar school, there are about 2 kids a year doing A level music, 1-3 doing Latin/Greek and a handful doing the 3 modern languages on offer. And that is one of the top performing state schools in the country, literally. So if they want to keep running the courses in those subjects and employing the dons, they probably now do have to recruit directly from elite private schools. Also privileged kids can maybe afford to do subjects which do not lead to a job straight away like law or engineering. Hardly worth getting upset about.

It’s really quite obvious top unis need to target top schools, otherwise eventually they will no longer be top unis. The days of utterly bonkers counter productive identity politics are coming to an end, thank goodness.

Very disingenuous and dishonest misquoting of statistics in that article.

Yes 7% of pupils overall are educated privately across all age groups but that rises to 16% in sixth form because a lot more families can cope with fees for just a couple of years and a lot of private schools offer generous 6th form scholarships.

From those 16% at private schools anout 50% of A-Levels taken earn A or A⭐️ grades whereas in the other 84% of A-Levels taken at state schools the percentage that are A or A⭐️ grades is about 22.5% which means that about 29% of A or A⭐️ grades are earned by private school pupils so any university course with expectations of A⭐️AA is going to have about 29% private school pupils with no bias or favouritism at all.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of affirmative action as a state school pupil with an AAA rather than an A⭐️AA who got those A grades in circumstances where A is almost unheard of and usually the best grades the school can manage are Bs or Cs might well be just as intelligent and capable as a private school pupil who earned their A⭐️A⭐️A in a context of great privilege, so widening participation action is valid. However if you are recruiting from the pool of A and A⭐️ grade candidates, the proportion of those from private schools is not far off a third.

It’s the money. It’s always the money. Old Etonians will make bigger alumni donations. The fact that alumni from state schools (including me) will never now donate a penny will be far outweighed by the expectations of future largesse. Everything else is window dressing.

Couldn’t it just be about getting the best kids?

But it would be very strange that the “best” kids all just happened to come from extremely privileged backgrounds?

You see all the crazy threads on here from parents sending their kids to feeder nurseries to prepare for an elite pre-prep via the 4+, or an elite prep by tutoring for the 7+, or 11+ or 13+ or whatever, go get into the “top” schools to get into Oxbridge... These children are obviously bright and capable, but there will be plenty of state-educated children who are just as bright and capable.

It would be strange if they all happened to come from extremely privileged backgrounds, yes.

It looks like it’s mostly for classicists. As Rachel Reeves has withdrawn funding for Latin and Ancient Greek in the state sector (midway through last academic year, thereby depriving children of the opportunity to complete courses they were two thirds of the way through) the only other option would be to close these faculties.

The thing is that kids are now so hot houses to get into these elite schools, they are actually quite thick but have £££££££s thrown at them to get to the level required. By comparison, state educated kids without the £££££££ but who get the same results are simply more clever. It must be to do with the donations.

I’ve taught in both and I guarantee you that is not the case. Many private schools rely on admitting bright self-motivated. They can then get away with a disorganised approach to teaching and university admissions, simply because the kids will either work it out for themselves or because their parents get them tutors. By contrast, I’ve taught in some very organised state schools that provide kids with great scaffolding to help them achieve good results. I think there are some international schools that are super organised and offer the kind of support you describe. And it’s worth remembering that our children are competing against international competition for university places and jobs.

For subjects like classics, there are going to be very few people in state schools taking Latin at A-level. (There were two in my year, one the year below, and that was about 35 years back.) Also subjects like Latin are often offered only to the top pupils, if offered at all. So there's a lot of discrimination by ability even in state schools for these subjects, if they are offered at all.

Also some private school students will be there on full scholarships/bursaries because of their exceptional ability, and couldn't otherwise afford it. That will only be a very small handful of the minority of people who get an independent education anyway, but they probably are the very tiny minority that Oxbridge wants for these subjects.

It would be concerning if they were targeting only the top public schools for subjects like English or maths, but I doubt it will make a huge difference to the profile of those who are applying for subjects like classics anyway.

LOL, there is some logic amongst all the resentment there. It’s the selective nature of the schools which eventually means the children are good candidates for Oxbridge, grammar schools are even more over represented. If it makes you feel better we can say it’s donations though.

I don’t get it. Surely the applicants for Classics will self-select from the schools that offer Latin and Greek A level, so no need for an overtly targeted campaign?

So, it doesn’t bother you that kids from state schools don’t have the same opportunities?

Of course it is a shame that state kids don’t have the same opportunities. But it’s not Cambridge’s fault that the state schools don’t teach the subjects.

@Pinkissmart - the state school kids are all offered Latin and at least one modern language and also music including orchestras. They choose as a group not to take it much until A level. The subjects which are most popular are Sciences and Maths and then English/History or Economics. The only kids doing Music A level are pretty much NYO standard. So the opportunities are offered just not taken up. If you are bright and know you have to get a job to pay bills you are more likely to choose subjects leading to well paying vocations.
If the arts etc don’t pay well and you need a trust fund to survive then why blame the unis? Their duty is to their employees.

Yes but state schools are soon to get the opportunities for forced anti misogyny and decolonisation classes, so swings and roundabouts.

What “worst work” are you thinking of?

The introduction of the EBacc performance measure may not have helped music, but it was designed
to encourage schools to enter more students for language (and humanities) GCSEs. The number of students taking language GCSEs had fallen sharply when languages stopped being a compulsory part of the national curriculum at key stage 4 in (I think) 2004.

And if I remember rightly, it was Gove who set up a scheme to train English and language teachers to teach Latin because he wanted more state schools to offer the subject. A English teacher friend of mine went on it.

would have thought there are plenty of state educated pupils that play an instrument to a high standard.

Not any more.

State school children historically relied on LEA-employed instrumental music teachers, known colloquially as "peris" because they were peripatetic, travelling from school to school to teach. A lot of state school kids' parents simply can't afford the cost of a private teacher.

Funding cuts to local govt, combined with an increase in academies aka "school privatisation", means that LEAs often can't afford to run a peripatetic music service, or if they do, they can't provide that service in the academies because they can't provision LEA services to non-LEA-funded schools. It's up to the academies to decide whether to offer in-school instrumental tuition and they set the cost, which is likely to be more than the LEA would have charged.

In the last forty years, looking just at the LEA I had when growing up, the peripatetic music provision has gone from free lessons with free instrument loan for the first six months and free Saturday morning music centres, to £150/year for lessons, waived if parents were on means-tested benefits, with the Saturday centre included, to £300/year, to complete withdrawal of the service. I'm aware of an international-level soloist who learned through my LEA. There will be no more international-level soloists learning through that LEA.

I started lessons when it was free and remember when the £50/term came in. Peers stopped lessons because parents wouldn't or couldn't pay. It's important to keep in mind that there are parents who refuse to pay for extra-curriculars despite having the means to do so. Blanket free provision allows the children of those parents to take part.

I play in a very niche competitive type of musical ensemble and we have our own news websites and forums. A constant refrain on the forums is recruitment trouble and ensembles closing down because of lack of players. I was in an ensemble that was over 100 years old when it folded. We are absolutely seeing recruitment problems because kids are not learning instruments, and we are seeing them even in the upper echelons of the competition structure.

At a recent conference for the players of my instrument, the conservatoire students were all plum-voiced, well-heeled, with many talking about their time at Chethams. Twenty-five years ago, you'd have heard northern accents in the mix and discussions of their holiday jobs. State school children are being priced out of playing and I'm not in the least surprised that it's starting to affect university intakes.

Not necessarily. Cambridge offers a 4 year Classics course to students who have studied little or no Latin or Greek before.
See answers to questions 3, 5 and 6 here.

Do you really kid yourself that it is a bunch of thick parents with thick offspring who use these academically selective schools? Also, don't underestimate state school parents. They are completely capable of hiring tutors and many do.

This is a really sweet take, such innocence!