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Is Trinity Hall Cambridge right about elite schools?

1000 replies

mids2019 · 07/01/2026 20:19

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

Interesting position but maybe there are those at Cambridge that think encouraging students from the state sector has gone too far? Wonder if other colleges will follow suit.

Cambridge college to target elite private schools for student recruitment

Exclusive: Trinity Hall’s new policy described as a ‘slap in the face’ for state-educated students

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

OP posts:
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12
BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 09:59

Araminta1003 · 08/01/2026 09:46

@latetothefisting - yes clearly I was talking about DD’s grammar school, hence the reference to music and orchestras there. Another PP referred to strong drama offering in their state school, but no music.
The state schools have to pick and choose and can only offer some stuff. Our grammar head has committed to the languages (modern and ancient) and music and has excellent peripatetic teachers too, fundraising etc etc and yet still, hardly anyone signs up for it.

And Labour are now funding an extra £2000 for Maths and Science heavy A levels at Sixth Form. To encourage even more of that to “boost the economy”.

So if some Oxbridge colleges have given up on politicians etc and do their own thing to keep ancient languages and thought alive then I applaud that.

The Government could offer online Latin courses for all with some talent for it, if they wanted to!

£2000 ? Per pupil?

Araminta1003 · 08/01/2026 10:07

“The large programme uplift reflects that some specific programmes are larger than the usual size in terms of hours, and supports maths and high value subjects.
The large programme uplift is only available where the student is taking 4 or more full A levels (not including General Studies or Critical Thinking), which include maths, further maths and at least one more A level attracting the High Value Courses Premium – that is, biology, chemistry, computer science, design and technology, electronics, physics, or statistics.”

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/16-to-19-funding-large-programme-uplift/16-to-19-funding-large-programme-uplift-for-academic-year-2026-to-2027

This Labour Government pretty much cancelled the IB (it is an expensive programme to deliver without extra funding) and Latin so I do not blame Trinity Hall for staying one step ahead. I respect that. IB was also attracting more language students, arguably probably also slightly more music as there are 6 subjects.

Slightyamusedandsilly · 08/01/2026 10:15

SanctusInDistress · 07/01/2026 22:35

The thing is that kids are now so hot houses to get into these elite schools, they are actually quite thick but have £££££££s thrown at them to get to the level required. By comparison, state educated kids without the £££££££ but who get the same results are simply more clever. It must be to do with the donations.

This is my experience of teaching in both state and v exclusive private. Plenty of nice but dim wealthy students with influential parents. And in state loads of sharp as a tack kids packed into classes of 35, with over worked, stressed teachers who struggle to give them the time and attention needed to enable them to hit the heights achieved by a very average child from wealthy and influential parents. Imagine what those state school students could do with the same small classes and top up tutoring where needed?

But yes, let's celebrate the perpetuation of an unfair and very unequal system. It's almost as if those encouraging the continuation of it know that on a completely level playing field their massively advantaged children wouldn't be able to keep up.

MaturingCheeseball · 08/01/2026 10:18

Heartily agree about the Music. State provision is awful. It’s not simply money - at primary school very few teachers can play the piano or even teach the recorder (the traditional entry point!). At secondary school my dd’s music teacher for GCSE could not read music .

No musician will ever happen with state-school only provision.

It’s similar with other subjects, especially the Arts. Real dumbing down and, in my dcs’ experience, a pervading air of anti-intellectualism.

januarybikethief · 08/01/2026 10:26

Araminta1003 · 07/01/2026 23:16

@Pinkissmart - the state school kids are all offered Latin and at least one modern language and also music including orchestras. They choose as a group not to take it much until A level. The subjects which are most popular are Sciences and Maths and then English/History or Economics. The only kids doing Music A level are pretty much NYO standard. So the opportunities are offered just not taken up. If you are bright and know you have to get a job to pay bills you are more likely to choose subjects leading to well paying vocations.
If the arts etc don’t pay well and you need a trust fund to survive then why blame the unis? Their duty is to their employees.

Your DD’s school is really unusual in this regard. No state schools in our entire county currently offer Latin, and most state secondaries here don’t have any orchestras. I was myself at a comp in an area where no state schools in the entire LEA offered Latin, and that was 35 years ago. (No school orchestra either.)

State schools just don’t offer minority arts, languages or humanities subjects any more. Recent research showed only two state schools north of Watford in the entire country offer Art History A-level. Even English has dropped down to a very low take up level in state schools due to the current push for kids to do STEM. If you want to study many niche subjects, private schools are pretty much the only places you can do so these days. I agree that it’s hardly the fault of top universities — if they want to keep these subjects alive, they need to recruit good students wherever they can.

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 10:30

Slightyamusedandsilly · 08/01/2026 10:15

This is my experience of teaching in both state and v exclusive private. Plenty of nice but dim wealthy students with influential parents. And in state loads of sharp as a tack kids packed into classes of 35, with over worked, stressed teachers who struggle to give them the time and attention needed to enable them to hit the heights achieved by a very average child from wealthy and influential parents. Imagine what those state school students could do with the same small classes and top up tutoring where needed?

But yes, let's celebrate the perpetuation of an unfair and very unequal system. It's almost as if those encouraging the continuation of it know that on a completely level playing field their massively advantaged children wouldn't be able to keep up.

I think people are celebrating the demise of identity politic based access to universities, the school you went to really shouldn’t influence the entry criteria. Dumbing down entry requirements will only lead to dumbed down universities. I’m just glad to see the back of all this.

ScaredOfFlying · 08/01/2026 10:30

DefiniteMeteor · 08/01/2026 09:40

If trinity manages to establish a Classics pipeline for these schools then it’s going to a be a huge draw for the children to take classics and get pretty much guaranteed entry to Cambridge which in turn keeps the department open. You can’t do it with state schools because it’s not funded. Simple self preservation on Trinity’s part and a fast track to getting into Oxbridge for those children (and parents) who prize that above subject choice, which is many. Actually very clever.

DS goes to a grammar, one of the best in the country literally, and at A level they had 12 entrants for Latin/Greek last year.

Trinity HALL. Trinity is a different college. I am being pedantic about this because Trinity (my college) works very hard to reach out to state school pupils.

DefiniteMeteor · 08/01/2026 10:31

Sorry my bad!! I know almost nothing about Oxbridge.

Araminta1003 · 08/01/2026 10:36

@januarybikethief - we are in London. There are plenty of state schools and grammar schools offering music, languages, Latin. For one DD, I had to pay for Latin as an after school club. All of mine did at least 3 lots of musical instruments to beyond grade 8 standard. There are conservatoires locally galore as well, some have charitable funds to help poorer kids to at least try an instrument. Croydon was running large choirs for state primary kids last term and having the perform in big halls.
The inequality is regional.
There are plenty of selective sixth forms in London that feed into Oxbridge. There needs to be the same quality of selective state sixth forms all around the country and there needs to be a gifted and talented programme for children from early primary who live in regions without access to any of this.
Eton tried to open some in the Midlands/North I think with Star Academy. I think 2 may be going ahead. The Labour Government is as bad as the Tories. They should be working with the private schools and Oxbridge to deliver more of this, not against them.

cantabsupervisor · 08/01/2026 10:38

OK, I'm a Cambridge humanities academic. State school background myself. Have been in the ecosystem here for twenty years. I have lots to say about the 'indy schools are full of tim-nice-but-dims who have been heavily overtutored while sink comprehensives are full of sharp-as-nails poor kids who just need to be given the chance'. Yes, this is definitely true - but it doesn't really impact the Oxbridge scene that much because we spot the over-tutored kids a mile off. A few will be admitted, but not overwhelmingly. Cambridge is not flooded by hundreds of stupid private school children who were only let in because their parents gave large donations to the college. The indy kids who are admitted, are bright kids. The question is just whether there are lots of state schools kids who, given the same training, could do as well.

Lots of people know this I know but some don't, so I shall explain the setup here. The Oxbridge system is built around what are called supervisions (Cambridge) or tutorials (Oxford). Students have one to one (or one to two) meetings with academic supervisors once a week to discuss essays that they have written specifically. These essays are designed to be more than 'informative' - students are being taught to be deliberately argumentative, provocative, interesting. To not just answer the question, but challenge the assumptions of the question. Early on, I get some of my students to write essays that argue something that they themselves don't believe. You get the idea. Now you might say that this only prepares people (men?!) to go into Westminster with its heavily bombastic, rhetorical MO - rather than producing genuinely curious, intelligent graduates who know a lot of 'facts'. In which case, Oxbridge might want to redesign what it's here to do. But I would say it actually does both.

Two observations:

  1. Overall, indy students have always presented as much better at all this - their essays have always been miles more sophisticated from the start. And I mean miles. I have had Westminster, Winchester, St Pauls and Eton (yes - it's now pretty academic there) undergrads who from the very first supervision of Michaelmas in their first year have hit the ground running with extraordinarily creative, detailed, clever arguments. The sort of stuff I wasn't turning out until my third year at best. They have been taught the art of rhetoric, they know how to digest material quickly and effectively and produce something genuinely interesting. They can reference stuff from the classics, the Bible, politics, the arts - stuff that isn't covered in the National Curriculum. Meanwhile my state-educated students, including the grammar ones, have always had a much slower start. In the past, some managed to catch up, some not. Of course, I have also had a whole lot of less-intelligent indy students who just coasted, and some state educated students who were writing essays that were 'fine' early on, but it's true to say that 99% of the time, my very top undergraduates were always from indy schools and 99% of the time, my struggling ones were always from state schools. I know this sounds like hyperbole; it's genuinely not. The top ones are not just 'tutored' - they have been completely immersed in a world of curiosity and intertextuality that doesn't exist in the state sector where a class of 30 needs to be regularly evacuated if one kid is having a meltdown, or even just in a place where there aren't the resources to take the time for this stuff. So even if they get into Cambrdige, they're already turning up at a disadvantage.

  2. Over the last 10/15/20 years, the decline in the standard of undergraduates that come up to Cambridge over that time has been HUGE. I mean, seriously seriously worrying. I now have students turning up who don't really know how to write essays. Some don't write in proper sentences. And this is Cambridge! These students can't structure a simple argument, let alone write a 2500 essay every week that involves reading several books and journal articles, and finding something vaguely 'original' to say. And this is most seen in the state students - so the advantage gap I described above between the indy and the state students who get in is widening.

This is entirely the fault of lack of funding, and the National Curriculum which no longer has very high expectations, which indy schools are able to mitigate, but state schools don't always have the resources to do. It's also the case that many state schools are not even offering some of these subjects or opportunities. Music is a case in point - you are just simply not going to produce so many good musicians if you 1) don't actually offer the subject, but also 2) don't have a chamber orchestra or chapel choir. Nobody expects the Royal College of Music to accept someone who can't play the violin as well but possibly has the 'potential' just because they didn't go to the Yehudi Menuhin School, so why are we expecting Cambridge to do that? Likewise, nobody expects the Arsenal junior team to accept someone who only has the 'potential' over someone who is already showing that potential fulfilled. Kings College Cambridge has had a reputation now for accepting a high percentage of state school students - the upshot now is that nobody (and I mean not one) in the back row of Kings College Choir is actually at Kings College. Because the best singers will be coming from places that nurture the choral tradition, and that can only be in a place with a chapel choir. I think that's a little sad.

I don't think anyone really believes that indy school kids are innately cleverer (aside from the small percentage benefiting from genetic advantage of generations of success). There will be plenty of intelligent state kids who had they been to indy schools, would have turned out to produce even more sophisticated arguments. The problem is that 18 is just too late to start this process. Lady Margaret Hall in Oxford spearheaded a foundation course for students, and now an increasing number of colleges at both institutions are running it. But by this age, a different style, approach, habits have set in, and it's very difficult to reverse and build on. It would simply require extremely intense and expensive 1-to-1 supervision over a long period to bring out the true potential of all the 'brilliant but failed' state kids. Which really isn't the job of Oxbridge colleges - it would be a much cheaper, easier, more effective job if it were done much earlier. I suppose you could make a case that Oxbridge could start an intensive programme for state school students much earlier - but really this stuff needs to be lived and breathed. It can't be a few weekend courses here and there. Most supervisors are academics whose 'real' work is research. So when they supervise undergrads, they want to talk about actual content and ideas, not have to go through their essays finding typos, looking for where they've just used ChatGPT. That's not a good use of academics' time or college's money.

I don't know what the answer is for Oxbridge, but it's not to just let more state school children in and try to 'top them up'. The result of that is 1) the state school kids are failed - they never turn out as bright, and they drop out more than the indy ones; 2) the standards of these institutions just keep dropping, because not only are the standards of graduates lower, but the universities are spending lots of money and resources on trying to bring up the standards of a few by miniscule amounts. The cost/benefits is woeful.

Like I say, I don't know the answer for Oxbridge. But I entirely understand why Trinity Hall has done this, and said it publicly, in a hope to attract some of the sorts of kids I've described above.

LadyBlakeneysHanky · 08/01/2026 10:43

If their objective was genuinely to target schools offering minority arts subjects, to encourage applications in those subjects, they would not be targeting such a tiny, tiny subset of private schools - basically, those schools at which pupils will be the children of true elites, rather than doctors and accountants working hard & saving for private school fees.

Instead they would be targeting schools offering those minority subjects more generally, for instance through teachers’ associations.

This is about getting the children of a tiny group of hyper-privileged hyper-wealthy people into Cambridge, at the expense of state educated pupils and yes, at the expense of most ‘ordinary’ privately educated pupils.

It’s repulsive. Pure snobbery.

Slightyamusedandsilly · 08/01/2026 10:43

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 10:30

I think people are celebrating the demise of identity politic based access to universities, the school you went to really shouldn’t influence the entry criteria. Dumbing down entry requirements will only lead to dumbed down universities. I’m just glad to see the back of all this.

I’m just glad to see the back of all this because it further enables unfair advantage. Still, at least you're honest. But don't kid yourself state school students lead to dumbed down universities. That is definitely NOT what this is about.

HushTheNoise · 08/01/2026 10:46

@MathsAndStatisticsCampus there are very much lower numbers of state educated children who can play an instrument to the level required. A 20 minute group lesson does not get you to post-grade 8 easily. Many schools don't offer a level music or even GCSE.

HundredMilesAnHour · 08/01/2026 10:46

Araminta1003 · 07/01/2026 23:16

@Pinkissmart - the state school kids are all offered Latin and at least one modern language and also music including orchestras. They choose as a group not to take it much until A level. The subjects which are most popular are Sciences and Maths and then English/History or Economics. The only kids doing Music A level are pretty much NYO standard. So the opportunities are offered just not taken up. If you are bright and know you have to get a job to pay bills you are more likely to choose subjects leading to well paying vocations.
If the arts etc don’t pay well and you need a trust fund to survive then why blame the unis? Their duty is to their employees.

On which planet are “the state school kids all offered Latin”???

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 10:50

Slightyamusedandsilly · 08/01/2026 10:43

I’m just glad to see the back of all this because it further enables unfair advantage. Still, at least you're honest. But don't kid yourself state school students lead to dumbed down universities. That is definitely NOT what this is about.

Edited

Ah the old victim identity politics, who said state kids lead to dumb down universities? Lowering entry standards based on what secondary school someone goes to will lead to dumbed down universities. Don’t kid yourself, that is definitely all this is ever about.

AlpineMuesli · 08/01/2026 10:54

Thanks @cantabsupervisor that’s enlightening. Could you contextualise it with comparisons to foreign (non-domestic, higher fee paying) students please?

bombastix · 08/01/2026 10:58

Not surprised and I don’t think Tit Hall will be the last college to do this either.

HundredMilesAnHour · 08/01/2026 10:58

That was a really powerful post so thanks @cantabsupervisor

I find it utterly dismaying though that it reinforces how much the cards are still so heavily stacked against bright state school kids.

Araminta1003 · 08/01/2026 10:59

@cantabsupervisor - is there any appetite to create online content to guide essay writing skills from an early age?
The reason the private schools kids can do it is because their own teachers went to Oxbridge, they are encouraged to read widely, they have huge cultural capital and reference points across politics, travel experience etc. Can this really not be taught somewhat online with the right will? Like a website with tutorials from dons aimed at different age groups, reading lists etc

januarybikethief · 08/01/2026 11:02

This is about getting the children of a tiny group of hyper-privileged hyper-wealthy people into Cambridge, at the expense of state educated pupils and yes, at the expense of most ‘ordinary’ privately educated pupils.

Do you actually think that Cambridge academics want to teach the children of hyper wealthy people? Or that there are many of them at Cambridge? There really aren’t.

This is a fantasy. Most Cambridge academics these days are from overseas or from state schools themselves. But in the last ten years the quotas imposed for state school pupils have meant that colleges are now taking a big majority of state school pupils, and in arts subjects in particular have come under heavy pressure not to admit good independent pupils because of their school background. This also seems pretty unfair, especially given, as a pp points out above, that many more students are in private for sixth form.

Cambridge academics overwhelmingly want to admit the brightest students from both sectors. Anyone who thinks that they’re admitting Tim nice but dim types, OR that there aren’t some astoundingly good kids at the top of the independent sector (especially those who have been on bursaries and scholarships), just isn’t very knowledgeable about education.

For example, my DD has a bursary and scholarship at an independent because (a) she is very gifted at music, maths and languages — especially Classical languages, and there are zero opportunities for her to study these in the state sector near us; and (b) she consistently scores in the top 0.5% of the population on tests like MIDYIS which are taken across both the independent and state sectors, and top of the academic range on her SATS, CAT4 etc. Independent schools do offer bursaries to kids like this — rightly or wrongly, but given the poor quality of state secondary education, of course parents with bright kids take them up. Who wouldn’t?
Other parents with very bright kids do whatever they can to get kids into independent schools for the opportunities. They often have kids who would be the brightest in either sector.

Remember that Oxbridge very much are looking for that 0.5-1% ability range. And those are the people that academics want to admit and teach - wherever they’re from. They want the best from state schools and the best from private schools. None are interested in donations or the super rich (the parents of students never donate anything anyway, and the parents’ names are not even on the application forms these days, so no-one would know if an applicant had rich parents anyway!)

ScaredOfFlying · 08/01/2026 11:02

@cantabsupervisorthank you so much for your detailed and honest post. As someone who went to Cambridge from a state comprehensive (UK but not England) and studied a humanities subject, I can identify with the state school pupil experience you describe. I got a reasonable 2:1 and loved my time there (over 30 years ago now) but it was always clear to me how far ahead my privately-educated peers were. My son is at an independent school.

ScaredOfFlying · 08/01/2026 11:03

AlpineMuesli · 08/01/2026 10:54

Thanks @cantabsupervisor that’s enlightening. Could you contextualise it with comparisons to foreign (non-domestic, higher fee paying) students please?

Edited

Yes, I agree that is an important question as they make up such a large proportion of the student body now.

Skybluepinky · 08/01/2026 11:05

MathsAndStatisticsCampus · 07/01/2026 21:09

My understanding is that for certain subjects they want to target schools that teach them to a high standard and convince students that it is "better" to study Classics at Cambridge then Economics at ..... and at least historically they are not wrong (not sure whether this is true for St. Paul's girls but definitely for Eton). I am a bit surprised that Music has difficulties recruiting as I would have thought there are plenty of state educated pupils that play an instrument to a high standard.

Funding has been cut so unless parents have money then they don’t get lessons.

januarybikethief · 08/01/2026 11:11

ScaredOfFlying · 08/01/2026 11:03

Yes, I agree that is an important question as they make up such a large proportion of the student body now.

Actually, they don’t make up a high proportion of the undergraduate student body. There are lots of overseas students at graduate level, but much, much less at undergraduate - usually concentrated in STEM subjects, and with a vanishingly small proportion of overseas students in arts, humanities and social sciences. They don’t really apply in huge numbers at undergraduate level because of the high overseas fee costs (none apply from the EU any more for obvious reasons); and they tend not to be a priority for offers because they often don’t come even if they get one.

LadyBlakeneysHanky · 08/01/2026 11:17

There are two different arguments being made above: one, that this change is needed to promote applications from private school pupils in certain minority art subjects not taught in the state sector; the other (put forward with remarkable openness), that only pupils from a tiny subset of elite private schools are capable by the age of 18 of excelling in certain subjects (basically, arts subjects).

The first argument falls down on the basis that, were this the true objective, it would be best achieved otherwise than by targeting a really tiny group of schools. This clearly isn’t what is going on.

The second probably more accurately reflects the position of Trinity Hall decision makers.

It is worth spending just a few minutes thinking about the implications -social, economic, and educational - of the second argument. They’re pretty dramatic. (I suppose taxpayers would save money, at least, in that most arts departments at most universities could be shut down, if we just accepted that everyone outside the holy trinity of public schools is simply too far behind, by age 18, too intellectually incurious, too lacking in intertextuality and too reliant on Chat GPT, for Plato or Marlowe or Donne.)

I went to Oxford from a private school (albeit on the assisted places scheme). On reading some of the comments above, I felt ashamed.

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