Is Doxbridge a thing?

[mids2019]

Oxford and Cambridge both outside top 3 in uni rankings for first time https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15114137/Oxford-Cambridge-outside-three-prestigious-university-rankings-time-London-School-Economics-first.html?ito=native_share_article-top

I think the DM was trying to make a point about social inclusion but given the Times is a reputable university of guide is this a beginning of a shift where Oxbridge aren't undisputed in their dominance?

Durham is a really good university and in 2025 is it that Oxford and Cambridge have competitors?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3d813v7ylxo

Indeed.

But the original damage set in many decades ago.

"only". An Oxford 2.1 isn't anything to laugh it. Oxford degrees are tough.

‘Academics from leading universities have condemned the decision to pull a scheme aimed at expanding the teaching of Latin in the state sector.

The £4m, four-year project was introduced by the Conservative government in 2022, but that was ditched by Labour in February with immediate effect.’

Labour bringing everyone down as always. 🤢🤢🤢🤢

It is in Sevillian's (normally posts under another name but v recognisable always) eyes

ditched by Labour in February with immediate effect.

Why did they do that? As pp have pointed out it is very hard for students who haven’t learned Latin at school to make up ground at university.

Well aware. Much to be proud of, graduating with a 2.1 from Oxford.

It's only because Boris has a habit of flinging around his classical vocab in such a way that one would have assumed he had at least a first, if not better. Jacob likes to wear his cleverness on his sleeve rather too, and also only achieved a 2.1. They're both Etonians and super privileged, so a first wouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from either of them.

@ElizaMulvil wrote
‘Just 5 private schools, Eton, Westminster etc plus the Cambridge Sixth Form College take up more places at Cambridge than 22,000 state schools. Hardly evidence of prioritising state pupils!’

When you write ‘the Cambridge Sixth Form College’ do you mean the very large state establishment Hills Road Sixth Form College in Cambridge? According to this article it had 57 students accepted into Oxford or Cambridge in 2024. There are many other private and state sixth forms in Cambridge but Hills Road is probably the best known.

I don’t understand why you’re comparing (5 private schools and a large state sixth form) with other state school students. You could say accepting 57 students from Hills Road is evidence of prioritising state pupils, especially if you compared it with a different set of private school students.

I disagree with your "snobs" comment.
It is a fact that in bringing in very strict social admissions policies, many of the cleverest white boys (and girls, but less so) in the country aren't getting into Uxbridge, when, just 5 years ago, they would have.
It's great that the balance has shifted and over time we hope to see a wide and positive impact, but don't let's pretend that those white boys aren't also very, very bright, and that other universities will now benefit.

but don't let's pretend that those white boys aren't also very, very bright, and that other universities will now benefit.

It would be disingenuous to claim that a passably bright public school educated boy or girl whose parents can afford for them to do 7th term does not have a significant advantage over a working class kid from a school which has no history of getting kids in, however brilliant they are. And like it or not, there are plenty of places such as academia, politics or certain types of work where snobbery is a significant factor on whether you get accepted or move on.

It would be disingenuous to claim that a passably bright public school educated boy or girl whose parents can afford for them to do 7th term.

What’s 7th term?

They're both Etonians and super privileged, so a first wouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from either of them.

Hmm…..according to many on mumsnet privately educated people are thick so maybe a first is asking too much.

Rishi Sunak and David Cameron got firsts.
Rachel Reeves certainly didn’t, no surprise there nor with Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg.

The ones who totally bummed education, Nigel Farage and Jeremy Corbyn? Surprise surprise?!

I am more concerned that it is put down to social inclusion initiatives

@Hotflushesandchilblains what do you think the reason might be?

DH did this at his state school, but that was 50 years ago.

It’s when you do your A levels in 6 terms in the sixth form, as standard. Then you stay on for another term to do the Oxford or Cambridge entrance exams. You do something else for the next 2 terms, like a short gap year. You’re applying with your A level results in hand.

It was particularly popular in schools which had an “express stream”, ie you do what’s now GCSE in four years at secondary school, not five, and end up going to university at the same age as everyone else who doesn’t have a gap year.

I don’t know if it means the same now.

Thanks @TheyWitherWithTheWind - yes, @Wintersonata that is what I mean by 7th term. Most of the public school kids I knew had done their Oxbridge entrance after their A levels, whereas the state school kids I knew were prepping for it at the same time as their A levels. Which is a massive disadvantage.

Sorry, @Wintersonata you asked me a direct question but not sure what you were asking?

Also -

Durham also had less international students?

It has a whole college for Japanese Students!

Also Durham at least is working very hard to improve its social inclusion.

I was offered a place over 30 years ago with the comment that they needed more 'children like me' - ie. not public school. While I was there most of the public school kids had applied straight there. Most of the public school kids I knew had not got into Oxbridge.

7th term for Oxbridge used to be the only way to apply many years ago which was obviously a huge barrier for state school entrants who would not have had the benefit of a 7th term with specialist teaching for the kinds of things students might encounter on the entrance exams. It has not been like that since before I applied in the late 80s. 7th term lingered on for a bit in the independent sector but gradually became less and less common.

The vast majority of independent school pupils now apply in the 4th term of sixth form just like everyone else.

Especially as PP is counting primary schools amongst those with fewer Oxbridge places.

It has been quite some time since schools like Eton were the preserve of the landed aristocracy who needed contacts but not grades. Eton is now a highly selective school; its students do well in part because they are generally very bright.

Eton has about the same number of students going to Oxbridge each year as Brampton Manor - a selective state school.

Sorry, you asked me a direct question but not sure what you were asking?

@Hotflushesandchilblains I’ve reread your post and my question doesn’t make sense. Apologies.

@MonGrainDeSel
Are there still any entrance exams for Oxbridge? I thought they hadn’t existed for some years now for reasons of unfairness as described in your and other pps posts.

Depending on the course, there is a number of exams/tests required to apply to Oxbridge and these are also used by a range of other universities eg LNAT for law is used by 11 universities, all medical schools now use UCAT, TMAU is used by Cambridge but also a number of others for certain courses like economics, as is STEP…

@ChocolateTriflefortwo thank you for answering my question.

It's fairly commonly accepted that the academic calibre of Eton students has improved in recent decades but there's been a corresponding decline in numbers achieving Oxbridge offers, particularly evident in the past few years.

Cue an Eton parent popping up to say that the students now prefer the US but that doesn't square with the numbers who are still applying to Oxbridge and getting rejected in larger numbers than in previous years.

But it is not really state vs private. The real comparison is selective vs non-selective (most state pupils from selective schools) and south vs north.