Is Doxbridge a thing?

[mids2019]

Oxford and Cambridge both outside top 3 in uni rankings for first time https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15114137/Oxford-Cambridge-outside-three-prestigious-university-rankings-time-London-School-Economics-first.html?ito=native_share_article-top

I think the DM was trying to make a point about social inclusion but given the Times is a reputable university of guide is this a beginning of a shift where Oxbridge aren't undisputed in their dominance?

Durham is a really good university and in 2025 is it that Oxford and Cambridge have competitors?

For which courses do you think Durham beats Oxbridge?

Aren't all UK unis below Oxbridge "Oxbridge reject unis"? I don't think it's common to turn down an Oxbridge offer because you got into another UK university.

Ratings definitely change over the decades. I had parental encouragement to consider St Andrews but back in my day it was well down the rankings with York for example being much higher and now they have swapped over.
This may well change again in another 30 years.

Can you explain why he would tell them to stop calling, instead of inviting them to attend career fairs or perhaps even arranging an on campus recruitment event just for those companies?
Does the Warwick maths rep extend to combined degrees like Math+phys or MMORSE or are those seen as second rate compared to the more competitive straight maths degree?

I find it interesting.

I was reading an article from the Sutton trust that was opining that private school students still dominate the top jobs at the same rate as they did 20 years ago. If Oxbridge are making efforts to widen social access and accept fewer private school pupils it begs the question how are private school students still dominating certain professions to the same extent. The answer must be that private school students from non Oxbridge unis don't suffer any major disadvantage when climbing career ladders.

I agree Oxbridge are the best unis in the country but the Times university ratings are fairly well known and I don't know if turnaround compromise its reputation by. randomly pushing Oxbridge down a bit. Just anecdotally Durham grads certainly aren't mocked as being Oxbridge rejects but held in really high esteem as the graduates are very capable. Maybe not internationally as much but in graduate industries Durham carries a lot of weight.

Well, recruiters can certainly be annoying but my guess is that he was being tongue-in-cheek and is not actually sending them away. More likely redirecting them to the right people to talk to, who would be the careers department and not academic tutors. Goldman et al would absolutely have a presence at Warwick careers events and see it as a key target uni for recruiting interns.

I think Warwick is highly regarded for both straight maths and maths+physics, but I don't know about all the different courses variations. The strongest UK candidates that I see in my line of work tend to come from Cambridge (more so than Oxford), Warwick, Imperial and LSE. We care about actual performance more than reputation, though. The good thing about maths is that most companies will test it directly during recruiting programmes for new graduates, so it's less about who you know / where you studied (within reason) and more about what you can actually do.

https://thetab.com/2025/01/17/the-russell-group-unis-where-the-most-private-school-students-are-lurking-in-2025

Durham has the highest percentage of private school students in the UK and seems now to be viewed as 'posher' than Oxbridge by many school pupils. Does the leap in the ratings correlate somehow with the increase in private school student proprtion?

Does this mean the inclusion initiatives at Oxbridge are having the desired effect.

Even 30 years ago Durham was seen as an amazing university and among teaching circles and recommendations for students was often given as a credible alternative to students who may not have had the money for all of the balls, uniforms, socials that came with Oxbridge then.

Durham seems to bring out a weird sneeriness - all the “Oxbridge reject” stuff, the insinuation that it’s actually below most other RG unis, etc - it’s really weird. You don’t hear the same potshots taken at other RG unis, even the ones that sit much lower in the rankings than Durham. Is it a weird sort of reverse snobbery? Durham costs the same as any other uni, it takes people who get their entry grades. It’s not like you need to go to private school to apply.

I’d take it with a pinch of salt. The ‘top’ uni seems to change every year in the Sunday Times. If you look at how the ratings were determined the ‘student experience’ rankings for Oxford and Cambridge are very low - both around 120, and they are also low for ‘people and planet’. Of course research quality and entry standards are incredibly high as are employment prospects for Oxbridge.

Totally agree! nothing seems to ruffle feathers as much as Oxbridge threads or the hatred of Durham on here! 🤣
I personally just see it as a nice pat on the back for Durham, a little bit of well deserved recognition as it’s often overlooked 😊

I think a fair few students who are very smart have worked out though that Oxbridge is more work and more stress, yet employment prospects are the same for a number of other unis now, with high quality courses, so they are deliberately going to the other places instead? Not so much Oxbridge rejects, more Oxbridge itself rejected? The parents often displeased as still clinging onto the old Oxbridge myth that you can walk into a job?

I know people who've turned down Oxbridge to go to LSE or Imperial.

My DC is an LSE economics graduate.

I went to both (many years ago) and I hate this.

Durham is not at all like Oxford or Cambridge and that is precisely why I chose it for my first degree. Both my room mate and I declined Oxbridge places to attend. It had and still does have a very different atmosphere. DS is there and although changed, it remains remarkably similar.

Yes, they attract similar candidates but the Doxbridge/Oxbridge Reject badge is just lazy and actually helps to undersell and undervalue the unique Durham experience.

I just wonder if I (as someone older) have lived through the internet and now AI revolution and technology is reshaping the way we view education and perhaps more of skew towards tech Unis (Imperial) and it will be important for all universities to show they can compete with tech research universities at a global level. Oxbridge obviously have fantastic research programs but I guess there is pressure to really perform in this brave new world.

I think maybe places like Durham as has been said upthread are lapping up fantastic applicants who would have thrived at Oxford and Cambridge and were either rejected or didn't apply?

@Truetoselfyes Im glad someone else remembers this! I went in late 80s and I stuck it on my UCCA form and accepted it as my provisional as it was such a low offer.

Excuse the ramblings: on soapbox. Doxbridge was bandied about frequently on Open Days with DS. As a term it merely looks as if Durham is striving for something it really doesn’t need to aspire to be.

St Andrews has certainly been well led over at least the last couple of Principals - Dame Louise Richardson (who went on to lead Oxford) and Dame Sally Mapstone.

They have also used their 600th Anniversary (2011-2013) for a major fundraising and investment, and are now working on another major (multi-hundred million pound) investment project to build a business school and computing facility.

However, even back in the era you are talking about, (when St Andrews grade demands were quite a bit lower than they are now) the university was forward-thinking and ahead of many of its peers - e.g. the investment in a metropolitan fibre-optic network and 24 hour access to Macs and Sun workstations (and every student who wanted one having an email address) (in 1990).

Also back then, St Andrews drew an international student body, but has grown that aspect (arguably in common with the rest of the UK university sector, but probably more sustainably) - bringing additional money in - for example it now has quite a significant number of US students doing their full degree in Scotland (where back in the early to mid-90’s it was mostly JYA (Junior Year Abroad) students.

Another thing St Andrews does very well, is maintain a connection with its alumni, and (now) their parents, which both maintains the brand and also helps them
raise development funds.

St Andrews has built on its historic traditions (as the third oldest university in the UK) and invested in its infrastructure, academic excellence, student experience and scholarships - all to good effect. Clearly the increased name recognition that came from William and Kate going there did no harm - but I don’t think it was just down to them!

I find all of this fascinating to read, given we now have a teen at uni application stage. We’re in Scotland and the interesting change from the Times league for me was Glasgow and Edinburgh dropping down the rankings and being overtaken by Strathclyde, which is neither RG or Ancient.

Our Teen couldn’t be persuaded to apply to Oxford at all, despite at least expecting to have the grades and as fair a chance as anyone else. He couldn’t quite put his finger on why.

We went to the Warwick open day, I found it a bit corporate and slick, but it’s the teen’s top choice.

Most UK IMOers applied and got in Trinity maths, you can't name any got to IC to my knowledge.

I don’t think it’s. @mids2019 would have been better to have linked to the actual Times piece which lays out their methodology. I’ve read it and can’t see anything that gives particular weight to this issue.

The piece in the Times mentions that Durham may be benefitting from students who want to stay relatively local to save money.

@FgvdssIve got one at LSE. Offers are like gold dust, but you know that. The ZOOM for the LSE 100 group task was hard to schedule because in February reading week many of the involved students were home in multiple international time zones. Exhilarating to be educated alongside some of the brightest young people on the planet, studying ways of reducing global inequality together. My DD hated the weird traditions and toy town cos play of Oxbridge and didn’t apply, just not her thing.

It has always been the case that there are other excellent universities outside of Oxbridge, so that isn't really news.

I think Durham is still seen as the option for privately educated/middle class kids who didn't get into Oxbridge, isn't it?

I can't imagine that Oxford or Cambridge are overly concerned about their ranking in the Times guide. Their global reputation isn't really based on that.

Personally, I welcome the initiatives to address social mobility, even if they do piss off some middle class parents.