Is Doxbridge a thing?

[mids2019]

Oxford and Cambridge both outside top 3 in uni rankings for first time https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15114137/Oxford-Cambridge-outside-three-prestigious-university-rankings-time-London-School-Economics-first.html?ito=native_share_article-top

I think the DM was trying to make a point about social inclusion but given the Times is a reputable university of guide is this a beginning of a shift where Oxbridge aren't undisputed in their dominance?

Durham is a really good university and in 2025 is it that Oxford and Cambridge have competitors?

I wouldn't take university rankings too seriously. It depends on what metrics they use and if you think those are valuable and measure what you're interested in. It also depends on whether the journalists got the metrics correct (early in my career I worked in a department which suddenly scored very highly in one of the high profile newspaper rankings - it turned out part of our high ranking came down to the fact that some of the numerical data had been entered by the person compiling the tables incorrectly!)

Durham is a great university. It will be better for some students and for some courses than Oxford or Cambridge. There are other great universities in the UK and they are all worthy competitors to Oxford and Cambridge. This has been the case for many years. The media obsession with Oxbridge is really not helpful for students, parents, or the sector as a whole.

No way in hell would Durham be on the same level as Oxford and Cambridge. Everyone calls it an Oxbridge reject uni for a reason. It's not a bad uni, but not on the level of Oxbridge.

To me the top UK unis have always been Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, LSE, UCL and then after that King's, Edinburgh and St Andrews as well. Maybe Warwick for maths.

But the best in the UK with the global name recognition are Oxbridge, LSE and Imperial

I'd add York and Durham to the above list but otherwise think it's spot on

When we went to Warwick open day the man giving the talk really put us off. He kept calling it Woxbridge. It was an economics talk and he said he’s had to block the recruiters from Goldman Sachs as they won’t stop calling him to request his grads go and work them. It was most bizarre.

As a Warwick grad I find that embarrassing. It's true about the recruiters - I work in FS now and a Warwick maths degree is as highly regarded as Oxbridge (less sure about econ) but the phrase is cringey.

I can’t understand how St Andrews rank so highly. When I was applying to Uni back in 1994 it was where you went in clearing. Is it since Prince William went there it’s status went up?

I've met people who get into Cambridge but not St Andrews.

If you are planning on going into a career where what university you went to, and what networks you built while you were there, matters more than what course you studied (politics, journalism, law etc) then Oxford, Cambridge, and LSE remain untouchable. If you are planning on doing something vocational, particularly in science and engineering, then go by the course rather than the university.

To be fair, its not new news that Oxford or Cambridge may not have the best courses for each subject.

I am more concerned that it is put down to social inclusion initiatives. Sounds like the snobs are fighting back.

Warwick is a genuinely excellent university but if he's trying to suggest it's got a better rep for economics than, say, LSE then he's on glue.

Bristol and Durham should be on the 2nd list

Let’s just remember that there are UK unis that are world leaders in certain subjects, that don’t appear that highly up the list when rankings are published.

The right university is the right one for you and your circumstances.

I think that Oxford and Cambridge are arrogant as fuck and have been resting on their laurels for far too long. They have been rejecting fantastic candidates - based on prejudice (such as having attended a private school) and seem to think they have some sort of divine right to be lusted after by everyone.

Competition for the top handful of universities in the most popular subjects is fierce now. “Lesser” universities, such as St A, Durham, Bath, Warwick etc are lapping up brilliant candidates that Oxbridge have passed over. Graduates from these unis are highly employable - often moreso than people who’ve graduated from Oxbridge. Some Oxbridge students think that they have Oxbridge on their CV so they don’t need anything else on it. Some people doing interviews will have been rejected from Oxbridge back in the day and still feel salty about it and look unfavourably on current Oxbridge students.

I absolutely hate this Oxbridge romanticisation. I wish it could just stop and we could delete this sicky portmanteau - it’s no longer warranted. Yes, they are great universities, but they are not what they once were. And there are plenty of great universities - ones who have really stormed up the rankings and have seriously high calibre students.

I think it would be better if brilliant students had the confidence not to apply to Oxford and Cambridge - and those arrogant fuckers had to actually try hard to encourage the very best students to apply. I don’t know why we tolerate this unjustified elitism these days.

I have two DDs. Both had all A*s.

DD1 is at St Andrews (chosen over the LSE after being rejected by Cambridge.)
DD2 is starting at Cambridge.

My family overseas weren’t particularly impressed when we shared that DD1 was heading to St Andrews, but Cambridge rang a bell for everyone and they were very impressed. 🤷🏻‍♀️

DD1 had friends in her year group who were accepted by Oxbridge but rejected by St Andrews. Oxbridge doesn’t have a big enough intake to teach all the really able students, but their brands are rock solid. Whatever the Times says.

St Andrews isn’t ever in clearing these days. It’s extremely difficult to get a place if you are a Scottish student as places are capped and this affects the average UCAS points on entry figures as Scottish students generally have at least 5 Highers and three Advanced highers ( almost always at A)on entry so get points from the Advanced Highers and any other Highers they have in subjects other than the Advanced Highers. High uCAS points on entry helps with ranking. It has high student satisfaction too.

I can't see any actual evidence for that in the piece, which I suppose is not surprising in the Mail.

Durham is extremely well known internationally, and has been consistently ranked highly for many many years. The reason it gets the Oxbridge rejects label specifically is precisely because it's the second choice for many who use our on Oxford places, so clearly some of the brightest students in the country.

I think it's tricky for them. They come under fire more than other universities for not taking a broader intake. I'm not going to debate the merits of that here, but the fact is that pressure is external and it does skew their admissions process so they can't just take exactly who they would want to take if they were not making sure their intake was broadened. When they could, they were top, hands down.

Yes, they are great universities, but they are not what they once were.

I'm curious - in what way are they not what they once were? They've remained in the top 3 of the general rankings for aeons. It's perfectly normal that they are not THE top two for all individual subjects, but are you suggesting they have generally declined in standards?

They used to be all about elitism.

They wanted - and got - only the brightest and the best.

That selection approach has been challenged for reasons outside the scope of this thread but, while it may have its justifications, it has meant the intake is not as strong. That has knock-on effects in terms of the whole academic community there.

Thing is they are still the richest so have the most funds to spend?

My Lower Sixth DD certainly thinks Durham is the bees knees, but her male friends are coveting Warwick and Imperial mainly. Some of them could definitely make Oxbridge but have no interest as they see it as a nerd place (which is ironic, because most of them are very bookish themselves). This may of course all change as they mature.

A few years back when my eldest DS was doing international Maths Olympiads we met a bursary kid from Eton who was truly amazing but was eventually rejected from Cambridge but went to Imperial. I could tell then that Imperial was going to do well. It was just complete madness to reject this kid.

Personally, I think it is unfair that Oxbridge get to have their own admissions process in this day and age and try and cream off the brightest and the best. It would be healthier if admissions were fair across all unis and the whole thing was less elitist. The reality is that a lot of kids will be heading to local unis more, the days of the live away are very expensive and a certain high standard for all unis would be better for most students as a group, and society as a whole. However, the flipside is that our elite unis are known worldwide for their research, so what is more important? Society and student experience for all or academic excellence? I know the academics will say you cannot separate the two, but not sure.

The Bursary kid may have been Westminster School, cannot quite remember, but was on a full scholarship at a very well known private school.

I don’t think the Times’ ranking is based on Durham’s romantic college vibes, @Limeandsoda2023.

Durham grad here- the only time we ever used to use the word “Doxbridge” was in reference to an extremely boozy sports tour in Dublin that used to happen between Epiphany and Easter term, where college hockey, netball, football and rugby teams from all 3 unis would compete and then go out on the piss together. Was always a great week 😁 don’t think it happens anymore which is sad!