Oxbridge graduates who can’t get a job

[AquaLeader]

Interesting article in The Times this morning.

Meet the Oxbridge graduates who can’t get a (good) job -
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/oxbridge-graduates-cant-get-good-job-d9ddj9dff

It is unlikely to be a coincidence that the graduates highlighted all appear to hold degrees in the humanities.

@Testerical I think what they are up against is people who can demonstrate that they are best fit for a job. These candidates are not just assuming that they are the right fit for numerous careers and then feel put out when they don’t get one. To be honest, what these 5 have on their cvs is limiting and they don’t seem to be able to get shortlisted most of the time. They haven’t really evaluated what’s wrong, let alone put it right.

@OMGitsnotgood Certainly on MN, the minutiae of degrees are evaluated and pored over. I’m the pantomime villain for saying the employer won’t care if you’ve studied the Emperor Claudius in depth or know Far From the Madding Crowd inside out. What they want to know is are you the best fit for their job and, frequently, that’s not an evaluation of your degree (although for stem it could be). There’s a much broader set of skills needed that some people have never had to consider or even seem to think are important.

@TizerorFizz i completely agree. There is a complacency that generic skills will fit any number of jobs. You need very specific skills. Or at least, to be able to demonstrate examples of specific competencies in the workplace. I found it really telling that someone in the article complained because they got screened out for not having maths GCSE or not explicitly stating they had it. Presumably the job spec made that requirement clear. So, to ignore it shows a lack of attention to detail and not enough application to the task.

Also, a lot of people waste inordinate time applying for jobs they have zero chance of. I often think you could make money operating a screening service. Doing what’s required and what you’re told is important in early career jobs. The creative shizzle can come later.

Exacrly. But a lot of parents don’t want to hear that or simoly don’t believe it. Up to tbem of course but they are not doing their DC any favours. I worked for a highly sought after employer, but what do I know?!
I just hope there are people who take these comments on board.
I know that there are some professions/employers who do favour Oxbridge grads , but even then employability skills are still needed to differentiate yourself from other applicants with a similar academic background. Many more employers are university ‘agnostic’, it’s down to tbe individual to demonstrate their suitability beyond their academic credentials

“well, at least she will get social skills, providing she mixes not only with private school kids and gets a term time job in a supermarket or something.
Socialise endlessly at your peril. It’s a really bad idea, although fun at the time.
where I work (and I think this is increasingly common outside magic circle etc) we couldn’t give two hoots about whether someone has got a degree and even less about where the degree came from. It’s all about demonstrating skills for the job, tenacity, reliability, turning up.”

@Testerical - DD goes to a state grammar (after state primary) but has been doing classical music for many years including orchestras, Saturday music schools and residentials in the holidays/courses. A fair few of these have been in private schools and a lot of the kids she mixes with there do come from private schools. But obviously day to day she is around state school kids. A few of her friends from primary went to an independent school (she still keeps in touch) and her best friend has an almost full bursary to a private school (she is an outstanding musician).
It is not really my experience that any of these kids just mix with children from their own schools.

DD makes more money tutoring then she would in a supermarket. School actually expects them to volunteer in local primary schools. She is normally tasked with teaching music but to expand her CV, I could tell them to make it something else. But I am not sure - should she work in McDonald’s next year rather than tutor younger kids although the wage would be worse? And she probably would be adding less value? I reckon she would want to work somewhere like Joe&Juice just to get the free food and drinks! But is that adding value?
I thought she would want to go to Oxford to do eg Even Song regularly, but she is completely adverse to Oxbridge. It is her life. You cannot force them to do things. Music at Durham seems good too.
I was just wondering why it is suddenly Durham that seems to be the most popular in both her state grammar and I think for some of the local private schools. For the boys, Warwick and Imperial are really popular. A lot of these kids are going to get straight A stars but they seem to actively prefer the other universities and courses there.

@Araminta1003She should of course continue tutoring. Music is fairly private school biased but so what? Will it matter regarding her employment as a graduate? That’s the question. We are not all suitable for supermarket jobs when we have other talents and working skills. I said to my dc to do what furthers your career. Both did. Cannot see what’s wrong with that.

As for Durham - more dc from private schools than Oxbridge. Large state grammar cohort at Oxbridge to boost their numbers of state though. At neither is private the majority and frankly I hate this idea of only state pupils are worth knowing. My DDs were privately educated and have worked very hard! Definitely capable of talking to and working with many people. It’s lazy stereotyping to say private school dc don’t work hard or don’t work in the holidays.

Meanwhile, in the USA there was an article yesterday about CS grads working at Chipotle because entry level jobs have been taken over by AI. I think the Times is engaging in a bit of humanities bashing here.

these are all bright, hard working people, so something is clearlygoing wrong economically if they can’t get a basic job.

However two things strike me - they are largely applying for roles in journalism, museums or publishing - all industries with insane levels of competition. None of them seem to have done the legwork to get there (unless this article counts). The Oxford Book Review role sounds impressive but that’s not the kind of experience that will get you onto the BBC scheme.

There also seems to be a bit of complacency - not about study but about the wider world of work. They are all clever but so are grads at other unis who have done the hard yards.

Publishing and journalism are also dying a death. They still exist but its bugger all about having a degree in English from Oxford. Much more about communication skills, emotional intelligence, multi-tasking.

Also - is it a good thing that someone has so many people in their family going to Oxbridge that they feel the odd one out if they don’t go! It surely can’t give you any perspective on the wider world. Is this someone you’d want making policy for the whole country as a civil servant? Surely this is a great example of why Oxbridge entry needs to be opened out a bit!

Publishing isn’t dying a death! Books sales are good. It is changing though and it’s a business - so we need business skills not knowledge of Beowulf.

Marketing, sales, production, design, finance - all needed in publishing

these are all bright, hard working people, so something is clearlygoing wrong economically if they can’t get a basic job.
It would be interesting to see their CVs, and to observe their interviews to establish whether it is indeed an economic issue …. or simply that they haven’t prepared themselves for the selection process, or just don’t have what employers are looking for (beyond academic achievement).

I was talking to a friend this week. Her sons are 20, one dropped out of his graphic design degree after a year, the other has been working while he decides what he wants to do. They both have jobs now, nothing spectacular but they enjoy them and are earning.

Since they did their A levels they have both applied for hundreds of jobs, hundreds. I didn't have to apply for 100 jobs over my whole working life! From time to time I applied for jobs I didn't get, but I never had any trouble finding work in my chosen field.

Friend's sons have interviews and never hear back - for a basic supermarket job! It seems to be so much harder for young people to get work than when I was young, way harder! Roles are advertised as needing a degree, when it's completely unnecessary. Not everyone is a super motivated confident go getter, so what happens to them? They just stay at home with their mum? It's incredibly demoralising to be rejected over and over again and then be told you are lazy and not trying hard enough.

All of us lose out, the economy loses out, if the country cannot ensure that our youngsters can work, and something has gone very wrong that so many are struggling to find employment.

@OMGitsnotgoodIt came across as poor prep. One had applied to law and management consultancy. It seemed very scattergun with no planning.

It’s fairly obvious that many very able dc don’t get to Oxbridge. They might even be the ones who are more organised and are better prepared for what employers want.
@TonTonMacoute Young people are led to believe any degree is better than no degree. Dropping out isn’t a good look I’m afraid. There is work but young people don’t want it. So they could enquire at local care homes, but they won’t. They could try for any shortage area of work, but they won’t. Supermarkets can get staff - inside and warm. If people actually want work, it’s there. They want the work they want, and thats not quite the same.

depending on the role there is also the factor of over qualified or some companies would think eg not employing x because they wont be at the position long etc

we had that at our company, we trained them up (not oxford) and not long after they use ours to advance further

There is work but young people don’t want it

I'm sorry, I just don't believe this. There is work, but employers don't want young people, and why would they when people spend all their time slagging them off. As I said, it's no credit to us that we treat youngsters with such contempt and we'll all lose out in the end.

on the flip side most companies want worker bees rather than thinking worker bees etc

Some maybe , but many others you start as a worker bee then prove yourself in order to progress. Your comment sounds like exactly what parents of unemployed Oxbridge graduates would say, better to blame their little darlings’ intelligence than lack of preparation and employability skills for their failure to find work. Seriously not doing them any favours.

Most companies need to engage in succession planning. Having people who have no critical thinking, no obvious skills to hone and no engagement in the company beyond getting paid every month won’t ever run it or be worth promoting. It’s incredibly short sighted to just want “workers”. It’s why we had failing companies in the 60s. Poor management. Poor training. Poor recruitment. Poorly educated workforce.

I have friends who run care homes and make a lot of money. Might be a moral debate on that - but grads do need to think about what society ‘needs’ and provide that. That’s the way to be employed.

I am honestly not sure why my DCs landed the internships and graduate roles they did and neither are they. This is compared to their very able, much more focussed and prepared peers. I don’t think there is some magic alchemy for coveted graduate posts that means only the best, most suitable candidates get the jobs. Very high application numbers coupled with HR algorithms and biases appear to make all this a pretty random process, even at interview stage. So I can see why students engage in a scattergun type application approach. They might hope for a highly paid role that with a bit of luck also meets their aspirations but actually just want to land that first graduate job.

@Araminta1003- so you are shocked your DD wants to go to Durham DESPITE being bright? Is there another Durham at the low end of the league tables that I don’t know of? That doesn’t reject students who miss out on their third A star for Maths?
I thank whomever posted the link so I could read the article without having to pay.
My take is these students all admitted (and remember, the articles are edited to present a certain view) how naive they were to assume that an Oxbridge education would make getting a job easier. They admit they may not have had a strategy, though all have had the work experience (service sector etc) that people say ‘privileged’ students lack.
The fact remains it’s stiff competition in most sectors for graduates. How many threads about compsci grads struggling? Quite a few, and loads of STEM graduates not finding jobs over on WIWIKAU.
My DD is doing a social science at Durham. She is VERY anware about the difficulties in getting a job. She has managed to get a paid internship this summer working in social research, and next summer will be working abroad at an NGO. Her LinkedIn profile is up and running and she is determined to get as many valuable connections as possible. She’s a dedicated introvert but has pushed herself to attend every guest lecture that peaks her interest, signed up for one to ones with visiting people of note, got on the executive committee of societies, ran the Volunteer and Outreach program at her college, engaging with many charities in her area. Basically is looking at where she wants to be in five years time and how to gain the best experiences to get herself there.
But she asks her fellow students and very few are even thinking beyond what pub to go to Friday night. She can’t believe they aren’t strategising and putting the groundwork in now. A few are - she’s in awe of a fellow student ( studying Law) who she’s convinced will be top of her field she is so involved, determined and proactive. But that’s rare.
Maybe they just don’t have real life experiences at their age - all most have needed to do is do well at exams and have jobs that give them socialising money. None of this ‘adulting’ stuff that takes up 95% of actual adult lives. They see their parents, 50s and up, well established in their careers. They don’t see the struggles they endured to get to this position. Telling them is not the same as experiencing it.
The kids in the articles will eventually find jobs and those will lead to others, this is nothing new (I worked in the same type of job I had at 17 when I first graduated in 1984 until I got my ‘dream’ entry level job in publishing several months later). An Oxbridge education may be one of the best, but in the job market graft counts and generally all start at the bottom.

@sendsummer Only in larger organisations. We have most people employed in SMEs. They engage in good old fashioned fit for job.

100% this

I worked in the HR dept of a major publishing house and part of my job was to send the rejection letters to people applying for jobs (by this i mean sending us their CVs, not applying for any advertised vacancies)

I can’t tell you how many CVs we received from Oxford/Cambridge graduates and I always felt tempted to tell them ‘register with the local employment agency and start temping with us in an admin role’, because it was indeed PAs to editors that would end up getting the Editorial Assistant jobs.

I was instructed to just send a standard rejection letter but i’ve often wondered if any of them would have thought it would be beneath them to start from the very bottom.

I think it was easier in our day, but then there were far fewer graduates and far fewer firsts so having one from Oxford did make you stand out. Having said that I had unpaid work experience from age 14 - hello safeguarding that isn't possible now. I also had a summer holiday job as an admin assistant in the civil service that I was repeat recruited to (again probably not allowed to do that now either). I got onto a grad scheme on the milk round without really trying - applied for consultancy and when I was asked why I wasn't also applying for audit said it didn't appeal. Then got called in for an interview and offered a place on direct entry Big 8 tax as they (rightly) thought it would suit me better. I don't think that would happen now either.

DD2 is about to go into her third year of a humanities degree and quite literally has no idea what she wants to do. She has been unable to do a summer scheme for medical reasons - expected to have major surgery. However she is hassling everyone she can for work experience in areas that suit her skills. @Araminta1003 her profile is similar to your daughter's (and another Oxford refusnik due to wanting a particular sport at a high level). She has a lot of experience volunteering during COVID that got her paid work and a lot of nannying/tutoring and music supervision experience that pays a lot more than a supermarket. I've told her she'll need to draw out the organisational skills being self employed require (advertising/communication/billing/time management etc). Her volunteering will show the mucking in and relating to the public so hopefully will cover that base too. She's had a number of good roles at uni so I hoping that will help but its hard when they have no idea.