Oxbridge graduates who can’t get a job

[AquaLeader]

Interesting article in The Times this morning.

Meet the Oxbridge graduates who can’t get a (good) job -
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/oxbridge-graduates-cant-get-good-job-d9ddj9dff

It is unlikely to be a coincidence that the graduates highlighted all appear to hold degrees in the humanities.

Its ridiculous to think that having an oxbridge degree makes you somehow more deserving of a job than any other applicant. Its just snobbery.
The job market is shit for every graduate out there, and those who graduated years ago are also finding the job market difficult.

It seems apparently wealth/family background are factors for graduate salaries even at Oxbridge. I wonder how many relatively wealthy families can aim to support their Oxbridge educated offspring as they seek further profession specific experience or relevant masters? I wonder if there are Oxbridge graduates (as well as others from RG universities) are suddenly hit by the financial reality of having to work as there is no financial safety net and the necessary work leads them down career paths they wouldn't have originally envisaged?

@TizerorFizz Doesn’t need to be uni term time work. Could be holiday work, sixth form. Most cvs I see have some paid work on cv - I don’t think expecting some paid work on a cv for a 21/22 yr old is an odd attribute to expect but we can agree to disagree on that.
She opted for solicitor route not pupillage for a variety of reasons. Bar different skill set required hence different recruitment criteria. I need people who can deal with a wide variety of clients and members of public.
Anyway appreciate this is derailing into law talk and it’s a general graduate thread.

@mids2019 I think ambition that drives students choice in what to do too. The students featured didn’t really display that.

I know of young people entering university really wanting high paid jobs at the end of it. At some point they decide the competition, long hours and moving to a new location is not for them. They prefer lower paid work and possibly stay in university city or go home. It’s just easier really and they are happy. I think there is some evidence that if you come from a background that’s better off, you want that too. You are used to it! Certainly seems to be the case in many families I see, but obviously not exclusively. Many parents help to pay rent or charge dc no rent if at home. So many young people are helped out one way or another.

@Cakeandusername Apologies. I misunderstood you. I thought you expected to see constant work over 4 years. I have to say my DD1 had little paid work. The very few jobs around here for students are who you know and we’ve no buses. She had to wait until she could drive and thats a cost to parents too! In general all dc should have paid work or volunteering on their cv. After learning to drive and failing to get holiday work in y1, DD volunteered. My DH ran a company but nothing available! Didn’t agree with nepotism.

So I think having fun travelling and doing very little isn’t great prep for work but work for students is drying up so maybe the nepo babies will be the only ones with a decent cv in future?

That was just a specific example of a graduate our team employed - first class degree, lots of work experience, volunteering at legal advice clinic and four years continuous retail. Was making point we don’t need to compromise there’s applicants with it all. I think some yp and parents rest on laurels and think oh he’s got a first he’ll be fine not realising lots have same plus lots more on cv.
Agree volunteering and work experience has a valuable place.
I always shortlist with a colleague and interestingly both colleagues I’ve sifted with recently have voiced the what the heck has he been doing with his time. Some we have checked we weren’t missing info as CV so sparse.

“It seems apparently wealth/family background are factors for graduate salaries even at Oxbridge.”
Not sure about this one. I think the kids of the truly wealthy have no interest putting in 12-14 hours day in sweatshop style law firms or banks or Big 4 for many many years. It will be more like wealth management or private equity they are aiming for or industry, with the aim of joining their large existing family business.
The law firm jobs are for the middle classes etc.
It is also why all these firms do look for genuine grafters on their CV because it is not for the faint hearted. They spend loads of cash training them up and want graduates hungry to commit long term and do the long hours and hungry for the big salaries, which are a massive deferred carrot these days.

@Araminta1003 That is not true. These dc see both parents often working hard and do the same themselves. DDs have friends from Eton and Harrow and all are putting in the hard graft. They don’t have family estates to run admitedly but they work hard and always expected to. Swanning around wasn’t in their DNA and they do a variety of interesting jobs and yes, some do law!

There are presumably plenty of middle and upper middle types at Eton and Harrow. I meant the rich ones, 5 million trust fund and upwards giving a solid reliable income to live off for life, and no real need to sweat it out hours wise in the City. Some do start there, but from my experience, they all quit once the box was ticked. And some who took risks because they can, then went on to have incredibly successful businesses (including the women).

@Araminta1003 Well many are rich enough but my experience is that very diligent and hardworking young men are produced with excellent manners! Not sure the Oxford grads were the huge trust fund types. Didn’t seem it as they would not bleat in a newspaper I suspect.

@Araminta

That's really interesting.

I wonder if there is a group of Oxbrdige graduates that come from relatively poor backgrounds who want to the be the first within the family to taste the amount of wealth that working for an accountancy or law firm can give? There may also be those from rich backgrounds who having got life financial security coupled with having been brought up in a reasonably privileged way decide additional wealth won't make a huge impact on their life experience and want something more niche (satisfying)?

@mids2019 It would be great if Oxbridge had info on exactly what jobs people are doing after Oxbridge.

My DDs Oxbridge friends are mostly barristers and none of them had a privileged background and went to state schools. Others we know from school are solidly middle class but some dc prefer teaching and others lecture. They have followed their families into this career though so they haven’t made alternative career choices. However they can earn decent money as Heads eventually.

Others we know did become lawyers, vets, medics but that’s what they studied and it’s vocational. Others have done engineering and maths and the engineers aren’t engineers! Maths grads use their maths. So what you study matters and careers ambition matters too. Is it a teachable school subject - or not?

Anecdotally I heard the higher paid careers don’t interest the ones from very ordinary backgrounds as they lack confidence to apply and don’t want London - but does anyone know? If we don’t, how does anyone judge social movement? Does it actually happen? Is teaching a big social movement after Oxbridge? Not sure.

It's interesting.

I still hold the position that it is curious you would go to Oxbridge but then use your degree is a way that doesn't lend you any credit for getting into a world renowned university. I apologise putting teaching into that category but it certainly seems to attract graduates from full range of universities and demand any type of degree with a minimal demand a in terms of maths and English GCSE. I am absolutely prepared to be flamed for this but why get your 9 9s at GCSE, your a stars at a level and a good degree from Cambridge to start a career in the same position as someone with a degree from Derby university? That may sound incredibly elitist but isn't this also about Oxbridge students knowing their worth and not short changing themselves? Why busy you r b%lls through your school and university career to get no real advantage when leave to gain employment?

I’d guess more Oxford graduates go into teaching in private schools though @mids2019 so presumably Oxford degree will carry more kudos than Uni of Derby in some schools.
I’ve just re read article and the lot of them appear to have got to end of uni and only then thought now what. They’ve had the luxury of being able to go home and be supported financially, one girl comments she was encouraged not to settle. And a few appear to have done a masters just to extend student life.
Meanwhile other yp have been quietly cracking on and applying for internships, vacation schemes and graduate jobs.

@Cakeandusername I think dc mostly go and teach in private schools if they were educated in private schools. Although I know one who is teaching in a private school now but started their career in state. We do have a maths grad DS we know who was at a COWI uni and teaches in a giant state 6th form. Some will guess where! He was privately educated but honestly who really cares if you teach maths and he certainly has a trust fund! Most I am aware of from Oxbridge who are teaching go into state if they came from state. It’s what they know that seems to be key.

@mids2019 Yes it’s a job many degree holders could do but they don’t seem to want to.Both I’ve mentioned are teaching shortage subjects.

Most of my Oxford contemporaries who teach followed one of two routes. Some - mainly men - went into teaching in the private sector at the posher end and now have headships at prestigious boarding schools with lovely houses provided on the job. They also have lovely houses of their own for holidays - usually funded by family money. The others - mainly women - did something else first and then went into teaching later either as it fitted better with family life (most are married to high fliers) and they didn't want to be a SAHM or they have husbands with peripatetic careers so teaching worked out better for them as they can find jobs as and when they relocate. Quite a few went into primary as they thought it was more fun than secondary. Schools seem pretty keen to snap up personal Oxbridge grads.

I find this an interesting take. As someone who has sent two children through state schools (one grammar and one comprehensive) I am delighted that they both had many bright Oxbridge graduates teaching them - as well as bright teachers from other universities. Both schools had Heads from Oxbridge, one with a PhD. And guess what? Both my two ended up at Oxford.

I would say teaching in your degree subject is a more worthwhile use of an Oxbridge degree than say going into investment banking and creating wealth for yourself and others through arms manufacturing, fossil fuel extraction and use of cheap labour and profit extraction. Or going into derivatives and in effect gambling as a career. The costs to society from these activities and from deregulation of financial services is not surprisingly leading to growing inequality and social unrest as is so obvious in the papers this week.

I think students from Oxbridge are very likely to become head teachers etc which is great surely? That can earn very good money if that is a factor here.

agree with above that some ‘prestigious’ jobs are pretty grim when you dig into them. Lawyers for tobacco firms, challenging medical claims etc Financial and consultancy companies working to divert money away from ordinary people. Yes simplistic but the reality of some of these jobs isn’t great for the soul

@Juja Who pays the most tax though? A teacher or a banker? Who pays for the teachers? We need both and we cannot do anything without the higher earners paying the tax they do. You might not like it but there it is. Plus most don’t work with unhealthy companies. But, they are legal and as long as they pay tax, so be it. We cannot afford to collapse the economy just yet!

Low earning and average people pay tax too - it all adds up. Not just the high rollers of course

@TizerorFizz I'm not suggesting we collapse the economy; only commenting that choosing to be a teacher is a benefit to society and not a waste of an Oxbridge degree as @mids2019 suggested.

There are lots of advantages gained from a good University education that aren't quantified in £. My DS graduated from Oxford last year. He almost immediately got a job with care leavers and has just been accepted on Step Up, a paid for Social Worker training programme. It will be a tough gig but he is delighted and we couldn't be prouder.

@JujaI agree it’s not a waste to teach but it’s not ok to think everyone should avoid higher paid jobs. We simply cannot afford that! Did your DS follow you into a state paid job or are you a highly paid banker? Is my theory true? Did DC follow parents? I’m guessing yes.

This is not new. I was a Fellow of an Oxford College from 1988-91, as a young Fellow, I found it hard to make friends because my age peers were postgraduates and not always available as friends. Yet I remember in 1988 nobody would speak with me at High Table (one of the older traditional colleges). I had some interesting "friends" who were undergraduates and we used to go to a particular pub and I was introduced to a friend who was older than us, a beggar, a guy who slept in shelters. Marcus Roberts told me "he has an Oxford degree" so I confided in this more senior man the problem that nobody would speak to this young fellow, myself, at High Table. The "beggar" asked me "how are you drinking your soup?" I showed him and he shouted "no no no". He taught me how to drink the soup and push the spoon forwards and bring it to my mouth and then make an audible slurping sound while taking the soup into my mouth. I did that the next night for dinner and suddenly all of the other professors started to speak with me at High Table. There you go! back in 1988 there were University of Oxford graduates who were not only unemployed but sleeping rough and in shelters! However, this gentleman helped me a lot.

FROM MY HUSBAND: Dr Daniel Howard (Fellow of Pembroke College, University of Oxford 1988-91). This is not new. I was a Fellow of an Oxford College from 1988-91, as a young Fellow, I found it hard to make friends because my age peers were postgraduates and not always available as friends. Yet I remember in 1988 nobody would speak with me at High Table (one of the older traditional colleges). I had some interesting "friends" who were undergraduates and we used to go to a particular pub and I was introduced to a friend who was older than us, a beggar, a guy who slept in shelters. Marcus Roberts told me "he has an Oxford degree" so I confided in this more senior man the problem that nobody would speak to this young fellow, myself, at High Table. The "beggar" asked me "how are you drinking your soup?" I showed him and he shouted "no no no". He taught me how to drink the soup and push the spoon forwards and bring it to my mouth and then make an audible slurping sound while taking the soup into my mouth. I did that the next night for dinner and suddenly all of the other professors started to speak with me at High Table. There you go! back in 1988 there were University of Oxford graduates who were not only unemployed but sleeping rough and in shelters! However, this gentleman helped me a lot.

A good question. I've done a mixture of roles - without being outing - I've been in professional practice for 30 years, while also running a small charity, and being a non-exec director for both a private company and a gov body. My husband ran his own company employing 30 people.

So we have plenty of experience of the private sector but are strong on our ethical and environmental principles that firms shouldn't impose externalities (ie costs) on society whether through poor working practices or environmental pollution.

My view is while I am very supportive of private enterprise and applaud its contribution to society in many ways we equally cannot as a society afford for individuals or companies to make financial gain through damaging the planet or individuals well being. The financial cost to society of climate change and biodiversity are mega - see the Stern and Dasgupta reports.

@Diliana I love this tale about the 'correct' use of the soup spoon - something my parents drummed into me from an early age. I hope now High Table will be more forgiving. It really is quite ridiculous judging people's intellectual ability over which cutlery to use when. That said it continues and we've also sought to school our children to cope with these dinosaurs.