Oxbridge graduates who can’t get a job

[AquaLeader]

Interesting article in The Times this morning.

Meet the Oxbridge graduates who can’t get a (good) job -
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/oxbridge-graduates-cant-get-good-job-d9ddj9dff

It is unlikely to be a coincidence that the graduates highlighted all appear to hold degrees in the humanities.

Those I know have been snapped up by consultancy & Big 4 firms

Classicists make good lawyers and tax accountants as they are v good at translating legislation

@Dearover They have to want to apply of course. Some will and some won’t but many studying classics are quite bright. MFL grads are too in many ways but no one gets a good job by degree alone (except within the nhs).

I wouldn't inflict a career with the Big 4 on anyone who doesn't want to do it

Teach maths I guess, or one of the other shortage subjects. That's what many of the PE teachers are doing. Two of the PE teachers at my DC's school teach maths and another teaches food tech. Not sure if we have any Classics grads on the staff as the school doesn't teach any Classics (thank goodness 🙂).

@truzty So do they have a maths degree? Or do they just muddle through?

They have maths A Level and they only teach in Key Stage 3. It's not ideal but they're actually very popular with the students.

There's a oversupply of PE teachers (because there are so many Sports Science grads) so any that can teach a shortage subject have an advantage.

I think it is harder to work your way up from menial jobs too. Grad schemes not only jump grades but are also where organisations look for those grades of staff and often specifically train them for management. Working your way up, especially if you don’t have a technical skill, means competing not only with those who have done the menial task for years for the next step but also against a constant fresh batch of graduates being trained on the scheme. There does come a point you just need to do this but you do want to try and get into the grad schemes first in most large organisations that have them (smaller businesses are different).

Also even getting a summer job is hard - I know many many students who have tried hard to do this and failed. A friend’s daughter ended up staying with a family member hundreds of miles away to get a basic waitressing job (if she didn’t have a family member to stay with the cost of accommodation would have outstripped her pay)

My DB used to be involved in trainee recruitment at his law firm - he never gave any weight to summer jobs doing things like waiting, fast food etc; they really only showed who needed to earn money as a student. He was more interested in what else they had done in terms of directly relevant experience in law, paid or unpaid.

Oxbridge graduates salaries are higher than average but is this she to companies directly actively recruiting from those universities with may be financial incentive or is it due to the average Oxbridge grad going for higher paying jobs because they know their own worth? The higher salaries do suggest may be Oxbridge grads are eschewing jobs in the state sector such as teaching unless the average salary for Oxbridge is being skewed by those earning mega money.

To what extent should you be prepared to wait one/two years for the perfect job opening especially in competitive fields? I think a lot of high flying graduates do have to wait months (years) before landing the dream role.

Yep, all recruiters have their own biases, and will sometimes tend to recruit in their own image, so Mumsnet anecdotes will never give the full picture. The key for young people is to apply for as many different jobs as possible until you get a match on what an employer is looking for. Some will want elite academics, some won't, some will want hospitality/retail jobs, or a high level sport, some won't. A young person I know went for a technical role and was given a manager role instead because he had a similar Royal Navy background to the recruiting manager. He said "I know you will learn on the job".

That may well be the case for some. But the chart that was posted above shows that double the number of classicists are enrolled in teacher training than are needed as classics teachers. Which is way more than any other subject - in most subjects there is a shortage.

Perhaps classicists are particularly attached to their subject and teaching is one way to stay in the field. Or perhaps too many people are doing classics degrees????

It is not about recruiting in his own image - it is he has found most summer jobs are not a good predictor of success. Which is not surprising when you consider the low bar for entry to them. So he looks for other evidence. A job in McDonalds didn’t subtract from the application, it just didn’t bring anything to it. Though it might give an example for use in an interview which could help you get the traineeship. Representing college at sport or a work experience placement might also give you similar interview material that ‘summers of idleness’ would not.

Doing a customer service job for 3 years shows they are reliable, understand basics of work etiquette eg turning up on time and aren’t phased by dealing with difficult members of public on telephone.
The strongest candidates have the lot - academics, work experience, volunteering, positions of responsibility and pt work.
We are seeing really high calibre applicants that wouldn’t have considered us a few years ago but the legal graduate market is so over saturated plus the change to SQE has altered the market.
In interview I’ve found candidates who could give strong examples from a range of experiences scored higher. It doesn’t always need to be paid though - 6 months CAB volunteering in a deprived area gave one candidate lots of good examples.
The largest firms use testing and assessment centres. Feedback I’ve had from parents who have had yp recently secure the competitive funded training contracts at magic circle and American firms is that the full range of experiences inc paid work helped them secure role but that’s not my area.

Doing a customer service job for 3 years shows they are reliable, understand basics of work etiquette eg turning up on time and aren’t phased by dealing with difficult members of public on telephone.

You would have to be trying quite hard to be impressed by academic and other evidence including relevant work experience, voluntary work and interview, and still pick someone who couldn’t hold down a job at McDonalds for a summer…

I would be very surprised if that was the case. I was one of a v small number of people selecting trainees for a magic circle firm for a number of years and we gave significant credit to those who had public-facing work experience. Particularly in eg mobile phone shops (explaining sometimes tricky concepts to Joe Public, carrying out credit checks, signing up contracts) but also fast food, waitressing, reception work. Being a solicitor is all about communicating with and meeting the expectations of clients - we are service providers- and so this was seen as important evidence that they would be able to deal with people courteously in sometimes fraught situations. Much more valuable than someone doing a mini pupillage for a week whilst perhaps only interacting with other lawyers.

I think there's probably a subtle difference between having a summer job at McDonald's for maybe 6 weeks and holding down a part time job for a year or two. The former doesn't require a huge amount of commitment really, it's easier to get through something if you know the end is in sight and they won't have had to juggle the job around anything else; they'll probably have been living at home during the summer, with meals cooked for them and no study to do. Juggling a part time job around study and looking after yourself at uni is harder, and holding down a job for the long term (1 year plus) suggests commitment.

I suspect that a lot will be teaching primary - the all round nature of Classics is good for primary literacy and topic. I know a few people who went from classics to primary and love it as they have all the ancient history stuff in the national curriculum. Some even manage to finagle some Latin into school as well. Most are private though

@Delphigirl Most young people wanting to be barristers use mini pupillages to work out which area of law might suit them and who they should target via Gateway. It’s obviously not really worthwhile work experience as it’s shadowing but they are competitive and dc have to apply and get selected.

I do think commitment to volunteering or a job means something but in term time few Oxbridge undergrads will do this and are not expected to. They do get good jobs so clearly not all employers want term time working.

Also employers really don’t consider the views of one individual. DD says they work to set criteria on the selection committee and have a scoring system. So same for all and they are cross checked! So any bias is spotted. It depends how the scoring system values part time work vs part time volunteering. It’s probably not that nuanced.

@TizerorFizz I do wonder sometimes if you ever stop and think "perhaps I will not teach my grandmother how to suck eggs"?

@Delphigirl Well you could say what you mean then instead of saying a mini pulillage for a week has no value. For a undergrad it does. Being clear usually helps us all understand! But please suck away. I suspect the grads we are talking about didn’t really target anything but some did have cafe jobs! Where did it get them? Nowhere.

Don’t say I said things I didn’t say, and then criticise them Tizer. It is so tiresome. I said that a public-facing retail or hospitality job is generally considered by legal employers as better evidence of suitability for a legal career than a mini pupillage. To then respond by explaining to a lawyer of 35 years what a mini pupillage is and why kids do them is also tiresome.

We aren’t choosing between candidates with work experience/mini pupillages/vacation schemes or paid work. We get lots of applicants with both. I value applicants with legal work experience. I’m not choosing 2 years at McDonalds over that. What I am choosing is 4 years paid retail employment and work experience over just work experience - that successful applicant also had a 1st class law degree.
There’s no need to compromise we are inundated.
My current trainee initially aimed for bar so her cv was 1st class law degree, academic prizes, at least half a dozen mini pupillages, legal advice volunteering, representing uni at sport PLUS a responsible customer facing paid role.
I’ve seen 100s of new graduate CVs in last couple of years. Some are seriously impressive.
Law is so oversubscribed.
Latest stats I’ve seen is around 22,000 law graduates a year plus the ones who do law conversion. Probably around 30,000 people a a year potentially looking for a legal career.
Under 6000 training contracts for solicitors and around 650 pupillages for barristers. Paralegal roles also very in demand now as you can qualify as a solicitor now by working as a paralegal for 2 years plus pass SQE.
Employers can be ultra selective in a market like this.

@Delphigirl Your high horse is 50 hands high this evening. Just accept others might not know what you know.

@Cakeandusername How do Oxbridge grads get the 4 years of part time work in term time though? They are told not to work. That’s a somewhat odd attribute when it excludes some people . Firms can be choosy, of course, and I’m wondering why your candidate didn’t get a barrister pupillage. Often it’s a similar problem as with the Oxbridge grads here - scattergun applications. As I said, they need to use minis to see what they really are suited to. Plus the bar takes no notice of term time work. The Oxbridge barristers (40%) haven’t done it. A scholarship from an Inn of Court giving most or all of course fees is what really counts plus a few other things.

There has been research that shows underemployment or entering minimum wage jobs -if you can't get a graduate job - has lasting negative effects on future career outcomes.

Again, those who have parents who are able to support them will have more opportunities to take a longer approach to get where they want to be.

DD finished university in May without a job secured and did not go back to her casual summer work. Applying for jobs is like a job in itself. If she hadn't secured her graduate scheme, she'd have looked for more degree related work experience or internships and we would have been able to support that, even if we had to pay for accommodation elsewhere.

I suspect those unlucky enough to graduate the past few years might have the issue of underemployment following them through life ( like those who have graduated in a recession) Although I get the impression today's young people are more enterprising and entrepreneurial and may not accept that fate.