Oxbridge graduates who can’t get a job

[AquaLeader]

Interesting article in The Times this morning.

Meet the Oxbridge graduates who can’t get a (good) job -
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/oxbridge-graduates-cant-get-good-job-d9ddj9dff

It is unlikely to be a coincidence that the graduates highlighted all appear to hold degrees in the humanities.

I can see maybe an Oxbrdige graduate who wanted to be a journalist being miffed if after studying at one of the best universities on the planet cannot get a foothold in the BBC actually.

Even back in my day, it was known that if you wanted to work somewhere like the BBC, or any sought after, prestigious career, you needed to start working towards it early on - getting involved in student journalism, student drama, or wherever your ambitions lay.

Just to address the 'across the pond' aspect - no, because Americans have to have a long and impressive CV under their belts just to get into the Ivies and Ivy equivalents, and will spend their university years expanding those CVs, even in the Ivies. If they want to proceed to medical or law school after their bachelor's degree, they will have started as teens to gain experience in relevant areas.

It is interesting comparing the US and UK systems and to my mind we are very much more humble in our approach to universities and the extent that students fixate on top universities. I think though I may be wrong that in the U.S. entry to a top university is viewed more of an entry to high power high salary careers and they are certainly more boastful. I think US culture is less shameful of elitism.

The US and UK both have poor social mobility and the US has even less social mixing than the UK. The difference is, Americans apparently aren’t ashamed of that. Their system favours the rich and well connected, probably even more so than ours does.

@Walkaround Who has the more bouyant economy? Americans need to make money via a good job to get healthcare. It means they really focus. This piece showed these young people didn’t focus on their careers in the same way. They seemed to think they didn’t really need to.

The bbc is trying very hard to broaden its workforce so no, every Oxbridge candidate isn’t a shoe in. Many very bright dc who are just as good don’t get into Oxbridge but are more organised about employment.

Some people are very keen on education that are not well off. Others see it as elitest to go to the best universities and don’t even try. You cannot help someone who isn’t interested. “Not for the likes of us” is still a common thought. My MIL told us we were “getting above our station”
when we paid for education. It’s attitudes like this that hold aspiration back.

Every country in the world has poor social mobility, but some worry about it more than others. Worrying about it is good because it is the only way to mitigate it.

Nepotism isn't confined to the middle classes or to native Brits - its easier to get an apprenticeship/job if you know someone with their own business, especially in the trades where there are many small businesses without HR departments to police their recruitment. I know a young person who recently got relatively low A Level grades (CDE) and will be going to a relatively low tariff uni to study Law, but has a guaranteed job lined up with a law firm after graduation due to her parent's contacts - she isn't a middle class Brit - her parents are self-made Eastern European migrants with their own business and many contacts within their expat community who look after each other.

@Walkaround

I agree.

I wish people were given a true picture of US society rather than what is in effect a massive PR exercise in terms of entertainment output that makes it look relatively utopian.

my daughter watche s a lot of teen US drama and the number of narratives of school kids aiming for Harvard/Yale/MIT etc. is staggering. If course the families in these dramas invariably come from the top 5% and I would struggle to think of UK output that eulogises HE to such an extent......

info think having met a few wealthier Americans they are unashamed of inequality and elitism which is possibly a result of a patriotic fear of anything that looks like socialism.......

@truzty That's a very different question though and cultural. It’s not really about Oxbridge lack of jobs. We can all see many businesses that don’t employ outside their own culture. Even cricket teams are cultural! It’s a result of immigration to some extent and doesn’t necessarily affect lots of others. Also employers can take who they want and family businesses employ dc or mates dc! Always did. Always will. The jobs aren’t advertised either but they don’t have to be. It’s not obligatory.

Have been away from the thread for a couple of days but have noted the comments from recruiters about wanting to see candidates who have stuck it out in the low level boring jobs that most sixth formers and students tend to pick up. Isn't there a slight element of ableism there though? I have a DD who is physically unable to do the routine retail and hospitality jobs as stacking shelves and carrying trays and spending a long time on her feet isn't an option. She's fine for office type work though and did manage to get some NHS reception shifts and a lot of face to face interaction with the public volunteering at a COVID clinic. It worries me that grad scheme recruiters want to see someone pulling shifts at Tesco etc that she simply cannot do.

@Londonmummy66 In my organisation a candidate with a disability meeting essential criteria gets an interview.
Some customer facing work is helpful in my line of work but it doesn’t need to be physical could be call centre, reception etc. My dc has a physical disability but has still found suitable work. She has volunteering too.
Your daughter would have plenty of examples for dealing with difficult customers or teamwork type scenarios with her experience.
What isn’t a good look is absolutely nothing on cv just academics and no paid work or volunteering. I’ve seen several CVs recently with degrees and masters without any paid work.

I think evidence that a kid has stuck at any job for a significant period which requires them to get out of bed in the morning, work long hours with colleagues and interact with Joe Public puts that kid in a much better position than a kid who doesn’t have that experience. It doesn’t have to be a physical job. It could be in a call centre or sitting at a reception desk.

Snap @Cakeandusername !

I would describe the current US economy as chaotic and concerning and would not rate it as a model to copy at this moment in time! I would also say that either a lot of US citizens lack focus despite the incentives (or are inherently self-destructive), or they lack connections, opportunities and/or education. Looking at the US, it is clearly not the case that a lack of safety nets helps to focus the national mind so as to result in a physically and mentally more healthy population, so, tbh, I think the importance of focus is somewhat over-inflated in comparison to the other colossal advantages.

To be fair, there's a lot that doesn't get mentioned in polite British circles, but it is alive and kicking all the same. Americans make the mistake of being upfront about these things, and please don't tell me the British aren't afraid of socialism.

It's also a mistake to take pop cultural references to American university applications seriously. Or in fact any depiction of teen life in America seriously.

Don't underestimate the motivation supplied by the imperative of student loan repayments, which you begin paying six months from your date of graduation, not when your income reaches a certain threshold.

No, the reason to bust your ass trying to put together a strong application to a top, very highly selective university is that these institutions offer to meet up to 100% of your demonstrated financial need if you are admitted. This can knock a whopping chunk off the cost of attendance over all four undergrad years if your family income falls under a certain threshold. Some students end up paying nothing.

Students are extremely aware of the cost of university, and those with an outside chance of admission will give it their best shot. It's not an example of elitism but rather extreme practicality.

Of we were to design an HE system from scratch on 2025 I don't think we would start with 2 elite universities and build round that. I suppose you could argue Oxbridge is literally the result of British history rather than some overarching HE policy of a modern governent.

If you ask any minister about HE they never differentiate between universities but just state political standard fare, 'engines of the economy, opportunities for young people, supporting local communities etc.'. Oxbridge actually just be quite difficult to deal with from a modern educational department when society is much more egalitarian than 100 years ago.

I wonder to what extent career outcomes are still largely dependent on family wealth and connections rather than university? Are there students at Oxbridge (and others) who because of their relatively poor backgrounds do find it difficult to seek out the same range of opportunities as their wealthier peers or simply wish to go back to this or home communities and do something altruistic like teaching with their degree?

I think they might be much more influenced by their friends and peers at university than their family - when they go to a university with more affluent, ambitious, clued-up students. Plus, they've had to get past more obstacles to get to the higher tariff, live away from home, university in the first place. But it would be interesting to know what the data says.

@mathanxiety The fees situation in the USA does promote dc wanting the best though and loans are accepted as the norm. Here we think everything should be paid for by someone else.

@Menotests Who says these dc are not affluent? One has had most of their family at Oxford! I think that they are from a privileged wider family and maybe didn’t see the need to do more as other family members had walked into jobs. I think not all students at Oxford are ambitious, affluent or clued up! Many are academic types with none of the above.

Yes, they’ve beaten off competition for an academic course but have failed to work out that this is not the end of what they need to do if they want a meaningful career. Academics isn’t the same as planning your career.

<What isn’t a good look is absolutely nothing on cv just academics and no paid work or volunteering. I’ve seen several CVs recently with degrees and masters without any paid work.>
And yet, relating to Oxbridge, these students will have demonstrated an excellent work ethic and sustained concentration, just by the various hurdles to get an Oxbridge 2:1 or more. That is even more true now than ever before. A reason why applications should not be university blind. With regards the need to demonstrate paid or volunteer contact with the public, students who have combined high level drama, sport or music or even more than one of those with an Oxbridge degree will have been extremely busy in and out of term time and can’t be dismissed as ‘slackers’.

I was answering an unrelated question posed by mids2019 not specifically refering tho the graduates in the article. Some people are making more general points about HE and career opportunities/nepotism/contacts/wisdom passed on by higher educated parents. Mids2019 pondered whether students who don't have those advantages but end up at a high tariff university will return home to do less ambitious jobs.

Finding affordable accommodation if you don't have mummy & daddy a few stops away on TFL is a big issue. Most house shares seem to have a rolling pool of friends moving in, but not everyone has the same budget. It's almost impossible to commit to a house share before you have a job and then hard to find one at the right time when the job is secured.

DD wanted to teach but was only offered the opportunity to teach maths with Teach First. She's a PPE graduate & wanted to teach humanities.

A yp is at a massive disadvantage without any paid work on cv at age 22 or 23.
I appreciate Oxbridge don’t work in term time but they are only there half a year, plenty of time for paid work plus volunteering, vacation schemes/work experience and hobbies.
I’m seeing cvs from yp who haven’t worked between gcse and A levels, no pt job in sixth form, no paid work in the long summer holiday between A levels and uni, then no pt work whilst at uni or in the long uni hols. Some even tag a masters on and still no paid work.
We are absolutely inundated with applications for entry level law positions and there are plenty with excellent academics + paid customer service work + hobbies + work experience + volunteering to pick from.

In fairness, the cohorts who graduated in 2023 & 2024 may have struggled to find work in the summer after their A levels because of covid.