Oxbridge graduates who can’t get a job

[AquaLeader]

Interesting article in The Times this morning.

Meet the Oxbridge graduates who can’t get a (good) job -
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/oxbridge-graduates-cant-get-good-job-d9ddj9dff

It is unlikely to be a coincidence that the graduates highlighted all appear to hold degrees in the humanities.

Not putting maths grade shows you haven’t read job description properly or are slapdash. Not who we want when we deal with work requiring great attention to detail.

Or alternatively, you are being a jobsworth and missing out on excellent candidates.

Or alternatively, you are being a jobsworth and missing out on excellent candidates as a result.

We judge all applicants by same criteria, I can’t give a free pass to Oxford graduate - oh they must have it.
The sheer volume of applications we receive for entry level roles is staggering.
It’s a scored system. Do they meet essential criteria? If not then they don’t make the first cut.
They aren’t an excellent candidate if they can’t read a job description.

Sorry, but the idea that anyone could possibly think from the context of that girl’s application that she hadn’t passed a maths GCSE is farcical. I go back to my point that maybe there should be more articles written about the inadequacy of employer recruitment strategies.

If it asked about maths, then she should have put maths! Simples!!!
There are too many other things exceptional candidates to bother with those that don’t bother.

That's naive @Walkaround . Employers are getting thousands of applications for every job so they are increasingly using AI for the first screen. Applicants need to make sure their CVs/applications can be read unambiguously and reference all the essential criteria in the job description.

There are many news items written about this if you google.

I’m not naive. I would write that I had passed my English and maths GCSEs. That doesn’t negate the fact that it is frankly ridiculous to reject someone who obviously passed a maths GCSE because they didn’t state the bleeding obvious.

Out of curiosity I’ve checked and no gcse requirements at all for her course at Oxford only AAA at A level and MLAT test. https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/course-listing/modern-languages
Her attitude to lady from council speaks volumes. No appreciation of the personal and useful feedback.

At the very least, it indicates the business world is using inadequate AI programmes incompetently, with the consequence that inadequate AI screening tools are screening AI-generated applications - and employers then wonder why they are deluged with applications churned out by AI, despite encouraging the problem in the first place by appearing to want to replace human employees with AI in any event.

If Maths and English GCSE were in the job requirements she needed to specifically state that because any CVs not listing those will be binned. This happened in the days before AI and will be happening even more so now.

You can't assume that someone with a degree from Oxford or another university has a Maths or English GCSE and employers won't assume that either. It needs to be stated. I've seen a lot of CVs for graduate jobs and also for teaching positions where people put "9 GCSEs including English and Maths", rather than just 9 GCSEs or not listing GCSEs at all.

So many of these jobs get huge numbers of applications. They need to cut down the numbers drastically at an initial screening stage so any CVs not matching the job requirements will be binned.

I sit with another manager and the criteria (essential and desirable) and we check the applications against the criteria. In many firms AI or HR would do initial sift and application not meeting essential wouldn’t even make it to hiring manager.
Some yp’s cvs are really poorly laid out/cluttered with irrelevant info. I will spend a couple of mins per application and try to find info but if I can’t tick off they have essential I can’t progress the application. There’s a standard recruitment process for the organisation.
My friend when I was at 6th form was all A grades at A level (humanities) but couldn’t get a C in maths gcse after several resits so it’s not a given.

Yep! Years ago it definitely wasn’t a given to have a pass in maths O level! Or GCSE. The degrees don’t require it for non numerate courses.

I agree that applicants write poor cvs. One of the reasons is (as evidenced by some of the stories in this piece) that the grads have no obvious idea about what line of work they really want. They have scattergunned applications and haven’t done any work that leads into their career choices in several cases. You cannot apply for law and a host of other careers and think you are best fit for all of them. Had they used the careers service they should have got guidance not only on careers but writing a suitable cv too. Yes, you do put English and maths!

Also there are many employers in this country who are not sifting by AI. SMEs probably not unless AI specialists. They won’t get thousands of applicants either but they need to see the job spec met. To be honest, a good old fashioned application form saves so much time here. All the info is asked for and is in the same place making checking easier.

@TizerorFizz even the small and medium sized companies (SMEs) are getting thousands of applicants because they are advertising roles in the same places as big companies - on platforms like Indeed. They get applications from all over the world, never mind from UK graduates.

"Good old-fashioned application forms" have evolved. These days, most companies, including SMEs, use ATS - Applicant Tracking Systems - such as Workday. As an applicant, you upload your CV (sometimes optionally), the system reads it and auto-fills fields in the application form. Then it asks you further questions. After you submit it, you can track your application through the system.

@truztyIm not sure you realise how many people are employed by companies with tiny HR staff numbers and they really don’t get thousands of applicants. These are companies with less than 250 employees but it really depends on their field of work. As civil engineers DHs company never got tens of applicants, never mind thousands.

I do realise. This is a very recent phenomenon, so decades-old historical experience is not relevant. When did your DH last advertise an entry-level or new graduate role on Indeed?

Workday etc are cloud-based platforms marketed as "software as a service" so they are highly scalable and used by tiny companies as well as big corporates.

Now read second person Sebastian. Again naively seems to assume his high degree classification alone would get him a role. No work experience/vacation schemes/internships, no volunteering or positions of responsibility at uni. No mention of any paid role as an employed person at all. Now only doing a few hours self employed tutoring. It comes across as age 23 and never been employed which is a red flag to an employer. If I’m thinking what the heck has he done with his time as a hiring manager it’s not a good impression.

We have the electronic equivalent of an old fashioned application form which should prompt eg there’s an Education box to fill in plus they upload cv.

My recent Paralegal advert said
What we’re looking for - in big bold font
Then 5 bullet point essential criteria
5 GCSE’s (including English and Maths Grade C or equivalent)
Experience working as part of a team etc
Some didn’t make cut to be considered for interview despite law degrees/masters as not stated met these essential.

If you have a yp struggling get a job, get an older adult to look at their cv and job criteria, give the adult 60 seconds, can they easily see your yp meets criteria. Run through basic interview questions with them.

In interview we had some questions like why applied for this role at (name of organisation), a question about dealing with difficult customer, what do you think role will involve (have you read job description and done a tiny bit of research) and many graduates were absolutely stumped. Basic interview etiquette like dress smartly, speak politely to everyone you meet (lots for example wouldn’t speak to admin lady bringing them to room)

Except its not obvious, and it does show an arrogance, laziness and lack of attention to detail not putting it on there. Other candidates would have and they would have been able to follow simple instructions and highlighted what was one of the essential requirements in the job description. Many Humanities degree programmes will state GCSE English as a requirement but not maths.

@truzty Why do you think what I’m saying is decades old? DH has just retired but he had decades recruiting and, as it was his company, did know the numbers of applicants! There are quite a few areas of work that are not inundated with applicants - eg some teaching roles.

@Cakeandusername I think maybe too many students don’t engage in careers advice at university. Some possibly through arrogance and others because they are not going into anything very competitive and have enough common sense to get what they want.

When I went up to Oxford O level Maths (and English language) was a prerequisite for matriculation - you had to have 5 O levels including those 2 and I had to take my O level certificate with me and hand it in at college before they could add my name to the matriculation list.

Because the decades of recruitment are not relevant, only the last 5 years (during which Applicant Tracking Software has spread to small companies), and only if he is advertising entry-level positions (for "any degree" graduates or unskilled school leavers) on major platforms like Indeed. As his company was a Civil Engineering firm, he was presumably mostly advertising for MEng Civil Engineers who are highly employable, not "any degree" trainees.

Teaching jobs get few applicants because they need specific skills and for all the other reasons discussed on other threads. If any of those Oxbridge grads wanted to work in teaching they probably could, but they don't want to. They could also easily become care workers or join the army.

I think there is pressure on Oxbridge grads (and other high tariff universities) to take on high paying high power jobs to make the degree 'worth it'. It is a real shame that Oxbridge graduates don't consider teaching more as such a career would benefit from their obvious intelligence and academic skill set. Oxbridge grads get jobs obviously but an interesting question is is it always the job they wanted? I can see maybe an Oxbrdige graduate who wanted to be a journalist being miffed if after studying at one of the best universities on the planet cannot get a foothold in the BBC actually.

Maybe being a bit elitist Oxbridge grads don't want to feel they have no advantage in a career landscape which looks at 2:1s and 1sts from all RG universities similarly? Maybe articles like this are a backlash against a system that puts the best of the best in the same pool of graduate potential recruits as other univesrties?

Do we have similar discussions about Yale and Harvard across the pond where elitism about HE is still very much a thing?

@truzty They are a mid sized engineering consultancy. They don’t want just anyone with a degree. They want certain degrees to meet their needs. Like a vet wanting vet degrees. I think consultants also are looking for a certain type of graduate. They have to want to engage in further training and be part of a team and be able to solve problems. Many grads cannot do this and sifting by computer is not helpful. They are a very successful company but it’s nit true to say everyone uses software. They don’t.

I am not sure these students had degrees they could use for teaching. Maybe primary?

These grads are competing with others for jobs @mids2019 but they didn’t seem to realise what that entails. I find that odd and one found her friends did have jobs but she hadn’t noticed them applying! My DDs talked to friends about career aspirations (not Oxbridge) and Oxbridge is a bit lemming-like so I’m amazed they were so ill prepared in terms of applying. I think it’s a personality issue and not fully engaging with what is required.

Plenty of Oxbridge graduates go into teaching. Both universities offer the PGCE, and Cambridge does an undergraduate degree in Education. Yes, there is a core of students at both universities who set their sights on lucrative, “high flying” careers, but it stands to reason a great many of them are there simply because they are academic and loved the subject they applied to study, hence why a fair number of them end up going on to teach academic subjects to others. The article could be about students at any university - it is not unique to Oxford and Cambridge that some students are better prepared for the world of work than others.

The careers services at Oxford and Cambridge provide excellent support - but both universities expect a bit of proactivity from their students in seeking tailored advice. There is something bizarre about the modern world that, if information is not force fed to students, they are considered to have been let down somehow, as though they are pathetic, helpless creatures who can only know something if given a lecture about it, despite the fact everything they needed was available to them with minimal actual effort required to be made on their part to access it.

So the Times have a problem with modern recruitment following blind university applications and not taking them simply because they are Oxbridge graduates. @TizerorFizz thanks for pointing out the name of the journalist giving career opportunities to his son. I remember the Private Eye quoting some journalist writing about "nepo babies" and according to her apparently it was fine because they were talented anyway!! It seems that it's not just retail jobs closed and only open to whom you know but journalism is still about whom you know.

@mids2019 Yale and Harvard cost a lot more in fees so people have to think a lot harder if they are willing to spend their money on them. Employers shouldn't feel pressurised to employ from certain universities because x has spent y amount or expected z when there are better candidates to choose from.

With DS2 we visited a bottom university's CS department on their open day. We were shown some final year projects as well as some impressive personal projects which helped them gain employment or internships. I have also seen LinkedIn profiles of CS students from top universities which are empty. It's clear who would be chosen by graduate recruitment.