Son not allowed to continue to second year at uni

[PocketSand]

DS2 has just completed his first year in an engineering degree. His results are all over the place from 1st in maths to 2:2 to required resits. He exceeded the A level grade requirements for MEng. He is autistic and has ADHD. He was un medicated prior to and during most of his first year due to shortages followed by referral to cardiology.

His DSA support didn't start til the spring term and one support worker provided 1 hour support when 30 hours was approved. He constantly tells the one he has seen that everything is fine and they believe him.

He always says everything is fine and doesn't ask for help. He has never been to the library and relies totally on lecture notes. He doesn't know what independent study is. I have always been his advocate but now he is expected to advocate for himself. No one at the uni knows these issues - he has not even contacted his personal tutor let alone disability services and just thinks he needs to work harder.

He found out today that he has failed his third submission of a lab report he initially submitted in February. He did not have DSA agreed support at that time so he didn’t have his own laptop. He borrowed another student’s at the time but when he had to resubmit no longer had access to his results and so he tried to cobble together a report using specimen (and maybe someone else’s results - not clear). He had previously received an email saying he couldn’t proceed unless he passed resubmission. I assume that’s where we are at now.

His feedback is harsh - shouldn’t study for a degree if not prepared to use feedback to improve his work. Trouble is he often doesn’t understand the feedback and he is unwilling to ask for clarification as he fears tutor’s anger. He says he doesn’t know who marked the work so doesn’t know who to talk to and seems generally clueless about most administrative issues.

I feel completely in the dark and don’t know where to go from here. Obviously I don’t want to just give up and accept his journey ends here as it seems very unfair but don’t know what I can do to try and enable him to fix this or if it can be fixed.

Can anyone who knows the system provide advice on next steps please?

@Crinkle77 It was a lab report that the students worked in groups for. When he could no longer access the results he had recorded on a borrowed laptop (the tables contained no data) he asked another member of his group for a copy of the group results. All his group had the same raw results so he hasn't plagiarised.

@gavisconismyfriend thanks for your constructive advice. I'll get on it today.

“universities don't allow parents to advocate in the same way and expect students to advocate for themselves”

OP, you write as though this is somehow something unreasonable. Of course universities expect students to advocate for themselves, because university is a precursor to the world of work. When he gets a job, are you expecting his line manager to copy you in to all emails and let you know your DS’s deadlines so you can follow them up? The fact that your son does not think he needs to do any independent study implies that he does not really understand what a university course is all about. As your DS is clearly a gifted mathematician, I would be encouraging him towards that, as the amount of independent study required for an engineering degree will increase as the course progresses.

@PocketSand I think as others have said, if they took 'months' to mark the report then that is also grounds for an appeal. An appeal can usually only be made over the 'process' (university did something wrong) and/or on the grounds that the student had a welfare issue (including disability) that prevented them from applying for 'mitigating circumstances' (or equivalent) earlier. You can't appeal against academic judgement which is not what you are doing anyway. In summary, if they took ages to mark the report, your case is stronger. I urge you to locate the department's OWN welfare officers. They should exist.

I dont interpret this as a question of ' honesty' so much as ND inability to organise or self- advocate. And anyway, even uf he is lying, surely that's an indication, in this case, of not being able yo cope rather than iccbeing wilfully manipulative and calculating. As an ND person myself, I get rather tired of the slightly dare I say it ignorant attitude that we are difficult people who wilfully wont do what we are meant to do because somehow we are just awkward. We have difficu in some areas, but we equally have huge strengths in others. If we are just condemned and written off, it will actually be a loss to the workforce. And the way this country is going at the moment we need good people with all the skills necessary yo contribute to the economy. This boy needs support, not to be told he's a liar.

@JudeyJudey I have already said in my posts what DS2 wants. Unfortunately what he wants may not be realistic.

@MySweetGeorgina thanks for understanding - probably because you have direct experience of where he is at now having a similar son.

@Sue763 thanks for your great response which shows genuine understanding of the struggles our young ones have.

@PocketSand why can’t your son sit down with you and show you his learning portal and his emails? On the laptop you say he now has?

One feedback I’ve heard that impacts many students is that at A level, the structure of papers and exams is very well known and students very aware of expectations and HOW yo succeed.

At Uni … it’s unknown … students don’t have structure or advice from instructors about what is expected.
In some ways it’s easier than a-level, and in others obviously more challenging. There can little or no contact with instructors.

Many students have inconsistent first year, then figure it out and do ok.

i to hope he can get the support he needs, he has the potential, needs to figure out the system,

@mcqstar I don't know if my son has elements of ODD but he's always been very stubborn, not in an aggressive way but having very odd reasons why its not necessary to do something or just pretends. I don't know why he was opposed to me buying him a laptop when DSA support was late but I know from experience that if I went ahead and bought one anyway he would refuse to use it! I'm used to things not making sense from my perspective! When he was younger he hated bathing. I used to run the bath for him and then listen for splashing only to peep through the keyhole to see him fully dressed by the side of the bath splashing the water with his hands. This progressed to him standing in the bath so I couldn't see him and wetting his fringe to pretend to have bathed. It was all so complicating and time consuming and caused so much stress that from my perspective it would have been easier to actually have a bath but it was worth it from his perspective.

Sorry it's another long one, but hope you might find some bits useful.

Re the denial; don't underestimate the very powerful effect of other students telling him 'of course he can't be failed just for that.' 'they wouldn't send you yr2 timetables if you weren't able to continue' etc
The desire to convince each other that bad things can't happen is high, (I found my cohort mainly incredibly naive for their ages) but the others wise up just in time, leaving more vulnerable students to carry on believing while they are busily rectifying things last minute. IME they wont necessarily then tell the vulnerable student.
(Not so much with Ds but I found myself trying to convince vulnerable students not to FAAFO for others enlightenment)

If your Ds wants you to try and sort this out, I'd suggest getting him on repeat saying I have asked my mother to advocate for me' 'I have brought my parent for support navigating X' He needs to learn to take the lead in this to utilize your support.

University staff are often dealing with parents who wont let their YA's grow up, or think that because they're paying they are entitled to make demands, and quite often staff decide they are helping the student by stopping the parent being involved. (often are tbh, but not always) They understandably want all students to be independent adults. (regardless of their ability to oblige)

Ds handled most of his his M.Eng 1st yr issues himself though pretty poorly, (outside of SFE which was a disaster) but struggled with the course not being what had been sold to him, as it changed from a focus on practical learning by doing, to theoretical, as he started, and he just couldn't understand they could do that.
But when he changed courses to one requiring lots of communication and soft skills, and nuance, he unsurprisingly ran into issues left right and center. Everyone said head off to maths or IT as clearly 'easier' for him. Not what he wanted to do in life.

I refused to go in to meetings to help him unless he made it clear that he was dragging me in, not that I was infantalising him. Also made him lead meetings, and state clearly what outcomes he wanted. TBH at home I was getting him to write his agenda, what had gone wrong etc, and the magic words "How can I resolve this?" (known as the big question to be repeated often if feeling overwhelmed) and would periodically in a meeting remind him to look at his notes if he got diverted by whose 'fault' things where.

(Part of home educating him was attempting to educate him in how the NT world actually worked, and where his weaknesses in dealing with it where and possibly why, including lasting earlier school damage, as well as understanding his strengths.
They often need this and it takes time.)

Even then as a fellow student, I repeatedly had to explain he had effectively gatecrashed my uni, not the other way round. Assumptions about parents are strong.

I understand the hope that staying in education will give a 'safe' space to mature, grow and problem solve, our goal too. But IME so much background work has to also be ongoing for it to really succeed. Amongst other stuff Ds was encouraged and helped to work alongside study, not taking on work at critical points, but experiencing lots of different situations and societies requirements all the time.

Lots of people will question if students like these should be there at all.
Universities are run as businesses and want bums on seats. That's the real reason for the huge growth of the support services industry around them.
Tutors often don't share the view, many pre date inclusion for all, and can be reluctant to be particularly supportive, as well as simply being quite disconnected from student support services and different learning methodologies.
But the vast majority don't want to see students fail. However if they think a student isn't up to it, them failing at end of yr 1, is the best option. There's always a natural 'no fault' reduction in numbers at that point.
Them making it to yr2 then failing, isn't great for the tutors either.

I can only say that D's has come a long, long, way from those days of intensive support to just get through daily, and despite Covid knocking him clean off track as the bottom dropped out of his industry, was able to use transferable skills gained from his degree to head for a different career, and holds a good useful position.
But although he masks well, it's still all at big daily cost, and some bits still easily revert under pressure. He has better coping mechanisms. (some maladaptive worrying ones too.)
He still hasn't succeeded at independent living. It's a long road, and if you can future plan for yourself potentially having to be around more and longer than expected, as well, IME it would be wise, regardless of your hopes or actual desires.

Keep figuring out with him what the way forward to independence is, regardless of if others get the need to be doing it, to prevent the sink part of sink or swim, or not.

I feel for you. I have a HFASD son who is also fixed mindset, so I can relate to that. Luckily mine does not have the same other struggles you mention. He’s a highly organised workaholic who keeps spreadsheets of everything and always falls into the role of tech support. His needs are social, not academic. He hates being patronised. I’ve learnt the only option is to let him learn the hard way and not say I told you so. In your case, don’t try and force the university to let him re-sit and continue. Try having an open and honest conversation with them about his needs, strengths and weaknesses. See if they might suggest a transfer to Maths. See if there are any pathways to engineering after a Maths degree too.

@Captcha4903 Thanks for the advice - there is plenty of evidence that the support was authorised but not delivered.

@Profhilodisaster I think DS2 would prefer to do computer science rather than maths. He considered it at email having got a 9 at GSCE but it seemed to be heavily dependent on independent projects to meet a need and this is not his forte.

This is incorrect. Formal teaching of social skills was carried out at school with autism support and other therapy. My advocacy was more about meetings with SENCO, LA, medical professionals etc and paperwork involved in EHCP, Tribunal etc. I have always supported him with organisation and revision at GCSE (he got 10 grade 7-9) and A level far more so as a result of his autism and ADHD. I have never stepped in and done things for him - even when he was very young we used behavioural techniques such as backward chaining to teach greater independence.

I agree with this. As a uni lecturer, I confess I wonder whether your DS is suited for university. His reluctance to work independently means that he's unlikely to succeed in a university degree. For every hour of 'contact time' (lectures and so on), students need to put in 1-3 hours of study on their own.

The other big concern is his reluctance to seek help. My uni has extensive support available for students with disabilities, and tutors are very willing to support them as well, but there is a small minority of students who aren't willing or able to reach out and make use of the support on offer. When that's the case, there's very little that tutors can do. At university, initiative has to come from the student to make use of the support that's been put in place. There are many, many students with learning disabilities whom we've helped successfully, but the crucial factor is that they've taken an active role in availing themselves of this support.

So in the kindest way possible, I would say that your DS needs to resolve these two issues (studying independently and taking an active role in managing his disability). If he can't sort these things out, then simply changing course won't help.

University study doesn't suit everyone, and academic ability on its own isn't enough.

I’m not sure Computer Science demands any less interaction and self study. You don’t need gcse or A level to take it as a degree but ultimately the expectations required to succeed may not differ.

@Elleherd Thanks for your email. DS2 actually had a bespoke package from the LA for internet school supplemented by face to face tutors for subjects like english and history where he particularly struggled. I was essentially unpaid LSA and used a token reward system to keep him on task and focused. He went to a brick 6th form to see how he could cope in this environment without underperforming. In some ways DS is realistic - he chose the local uni precisely so that he didn't have to learn independent living at the same time as doing a degree. The same with working in a pub, fast food outlet, supermarket etc whilst studying. He knows this would be too much. He has had so much support with learning basic skills that he doesn't think he needs prior to uni that I think he wanted to see if he could manage just as well on his own with no support. He thinks needing extra support is a sign of weakness and other people will think he is cheating - it was hard work to persuade him to actually use the extra time he was given in exams. Hopefully the experience of the last year will have shown him that he genuinely does need support to achieve his best and he will be more willing to seek and accept help.

@ParmaVioletTea "Could he use some PIP or DLA to have some goal-oriented and learning difficulty/ND specific counselling on strategies for adjusting to greater independence at university? Things like advocating for himself, dealing with what sounds like "rejection sensitivity" (a common co-morbidity with ADHD), being OK to ask for help?"

This would be a good use of his PIP. Would disability support be able to signpost appropriate therapy or would I just need to find a private therapist?

Absolutely gobsmacked at the ignorance on show in this thread.

It's also pretty much a poor me thread about the OP son . Regardless of what the uni did or didn't do there's absolutely no responsibility taken by the OP son that this year hasn't worked out . I had a really tough first year at uni and am also waiting an autism assessment but I didn't blame the uni for how my year went far from it.

@Mirabai he never had to study independently as such at A level like actually studying a book and making notes but just used every past paper he could access using the mark schemes to work out what he missed out or where he went wrong until he could answer the majority of the questions. Maybe that's part of the problem - most of the assessed work is not an exam and so there are no past papers or mark schemes.

I don’t disagree with this, his reluctance to study independently or seek help is a major barrier for him at this stage of education.

However, it makes sense, given his intelligence level, to try to find some way for him to access tertiary education, and complete a degree if possible - whether that is in a different subject, a different uni, or potentially OU for example, in addition to receiving some kind of help to understand what the demands of studying at this level actually are. It will give him wider options for careers which will be already limited due to the nature of his disabilities.

They don’t tell students what to write. They tell them what needs to be included and will advice whether enough information and evidence has been included. They can’t put words in their mouths so to speak and should never hover over them as they write it.

As others have noted. It’s up to the student to ensure they are receiving relevant adjustments. Given he’s been given two chances to repeat a failed piece of work it sounds, in that situation, that he has. Perhaps other Unis offer more chances than that.

Not all autistic people are the same so that's pretty much irrelevant. I also haven't seen anywhere that her son is 'blaming' the uni. I may have missed it.

I’m not sure why you are pulling apart everything I say. I’ve acknowledged that different universities may work differently. I’m writing from my experience, you are writing from yours. I’m very familiar with the level of support our students are offered by the union when writing their appeals and all I’m doing is reporting that. I’m not negating your experience so please stop negating mine. Our experiences are simply different. Neither are wrong, both are valid.

Your son sounds autistic. My dh os autistic and he's unbelievably stubborn.

Because he's probably autistic.

He is autistic it’s in the OP.