Southampton publishes Clearing grade requirements

[HPFA]

I think this is the first time I've seen an RG Uni publishing Clearing grade requirements before Results Day.

It's not for all courses but a lot of popular subjects nonetheless

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/clearing/course-vacancies?subject=All+Subjects&filter=&studentType=uk&availableOnly=true

Not sure what it means for those students holding offers at Southampton - does it indicate how far they can drop grades and still get in?

wondering about the most constructive way to discontinue dubious degree programmes and encourage YP to pursue alternative pathways more useful for many

I don't disagree but what are those pathways? People on MN often say "do a degree apprenticeship" but they are few in number and highly competitive. Likewise trade apprenticeships.

All apprenticeships are competitive, just as all good jobs are competitive, but Mumsnetters tend to over-focus on degree apprenticeships, which are relatively few in number compared to level 3&4 apprenticeships. Some level 3&4 apprenticeships are stepping stones to higher level apprenticeships or a clear professional pathway, others aren't - young people need to research opportunities carefully.

If they are looking for the least competitive pathways, they should focus on the areas where there are skills shortages: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/assessment-of-priority-skills-to-2030/assessment-of-priority-skills-to-2030

Quoting from the report: "occupations in Digital, Adult Social Care, Construction and Engineering have the greatest additional employment demand between 2025 and 2030. There are particularly large increases for care workers and home carers (90,000), which accounts for one-ninth of the demand across all priority occupations. The next highest individual occupation is programmers and software development professionals (87,000), which is listed as a priority by seven sectors."

@pineisland All that says to me about Nottingham offering accommodation is that they didn’t hit their targets at all. In the many years I worked there anyone that came through clearing was never guaranteed accommodation unless they had a declared disability or additional need.

@pumpkinjooce My DS has just finished his degree apprenticeship and received a first class degree and has his job. It took multiple interviews and was much harder to obtain a place than a regular degree at a University. My friends DS worked straight after A levels and did an NVQ qualification with his employer. Now in his later twenties and having been with them for about 8 years they have been so impressed they are paying for him to take a degree.

A million years ago when I started my degree at a post 92 uni, we were told they would take as many people who wanted to do the course, but the drop out/failure rate was high. And it was, we went from 360 in 1st year to a graduation class of 95. Many European universities take a similar approach, and I think it's not necessarily bad. It gives people an opportunity, but one they have to work consistently on. But that seems not to be the way of things anymore.

Thanks for this useful post.

Knowing shortage areas is useful for YP but I don’t think it is just a question of the least competitive pathways.

IMO the government - any government - would help the situation greatly by improving and expanding the trade apprenticeship programme and creating financial incentives to shift part of the youth population from uni to that pathway. If it came to be seen as a desirable thing any lingering sense that it is second class would disappear, we would have more skilled workers and everyone would be better off.

I am always struck by the fact that the egalitarian North Europeans, who mostly do have various post secondary pathways and late life access to universities, are amongst the self reported happiest of people.

@poetryandwine didnt the government mandate a proportion of spend on apprenticeship training by large companies 7-8 years ago? I will have to look it up to see what became of that.

@ExRG When did you work at Nottingham? There are lots of new self catering halls on or near Jubilee campus some are private but with Uni of Nottingham allocated rooms and that is probably why they can guarantee accommodation. Furthermore while second years can stay on in halls private rentals are cheaper and plentiful so most chose not to.Their clearing grades this year are higher than last year.

It's called the Apprenticeship levy, and is paid by companies of over 250 staff. It is meant to be spent on hiring apprentices. Many companies do it and there is a scheme where some spend the Apprenticeship levy helping smaller companies take on apprentices. However too many companies use it as a tax write off instead of taking on apprentices and many use it to train existing staff. The issue with apprenticeships isn't parental snobbery or young people but employers who spend a lot of time complaining about young people but not enough time helping them. Also there is huge demand for Apprenticeships in shortage areas like construction but not enough people willing to spend time teaching the skills in college or on a worksite, so the courses just cannot be run. We used to be in a situation where profit was what was left after you trained staff but now training is something that takes away profit margins. The Apprenticeship levy is being changed as a result of employer demands so we'll see what difference it makes.

Thank you @RainbowBagels

@poetryandwine "IMO the government - any government - would help the situation greatly by improving and expanding the trade apprenticeship programme ..."

That's exactly what they're doing, though at the expense of level 7 apprenticeships, because there isn't money for both: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/10000-more-apprentices-as-government-slashes-red-tape-to-boost-growth

" ... and creating financial incentives to shift part of the youth population from uni to that pathway"

The obvious financial incentive is the avoidance of long term student debt.

The gap is in the "marketing" ... they need to be educating parents and teachers about these skill shortages and potential opportunities, as well as young people, without seeming like they're actively discouraging anyone from going to uni. Unfortunately many parents and teachers still blindly encourage young people to do academic qualifications in things they're passionate about so we end up with an over-supply of sports science and media studies grads who would turn their noses up at a job in social care.

Switzerland and Germany both have excellent vocational schemes but the academic track is still the more prestigious. It seems impossible to stop this.

I once saw a comment on a forum about this "anyone who thinks there is parity of esteem should try being a teacher in Germany telling a middle class parent their child is best suited to the vocational track"

Well thate govt announcement is a bit .misleading. the headline is '10 000 more apprentices but it actually just that due to relaxing the rules around the GCSE requirements more people could in theory get apprenticeships.

Sorry, googled and grabbed. This one illustrates the point better: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/next-generation-of-builders-and-carers-set-to-rebuild-britain

Thank you, @RainbowBagels A properly functioning apprenticeship system would go a long way.

I don’t call it parental snobbery. That ‘s your phrase. Parents, particularly those who have struggled, often want better for their DC. It is too bad that this is interleaved with a rather rigid class system in England.

Perhaps earlier governments had visions of a workforce that was genuinely better educated and wanted more in HE to further this goal. That has not been the outcome. Instead we have degrees in Hospitality and Video Game Development and the like. We do see parents speak with innocent pride that their DC is enrolled on such a degree and I often find it moving because it carries a family’s hopes.

Although the system is probably not sustainable and is not run with the best interests of all YP as it is, I do see potential for social divisiveness unless very good options exist before contraction becomes a fact of life.

@poetryandwine I fully accept that is my phrase. Most yp don't go to University ( about 61%) The ones that dont are desperate for these apprenticeships but they are not there. They're not due to lack of funding, parental aspirations or lazy YP but often due to a lack of time, inclination or staffing. These yp need someone to teach them whether they are at university or on an apprenticeship. People say ' I learnt on the job and did a day at college' well who doesn't the time teaching them on that job? Who taught them skills in college? Purple who are either now far to busy or far too well paid to want to do it now. Re hospitality and games development these are more or less the only growth industries we have in the UK! Yes they are vocational and possibly should be done via apprenticeships and some are in hospitality especially but not enough to train enough staff. If the apprenticeships aren't there and the jobs offered are all graduate management training v them obviously people will choose a degree. Re games design- my very academic DS2 wanted to do this. We have a games festival near us. I asked some of the employers whether they did apprenticeships. They said no because they couldn't as small start ups commit the time. They want grads who have been taught programming Languages, design etc. I've persuaded DS to do sciences to keep his options open but it wasn't because I didn't v want him to do an apprenticeship. I'd prefer either of my kids to do apprenticeships, as someone who works in the sector and sees the value of them but they just aren't avaliable. My issue is that YP are being let down by adults then blamed and mocked for doing ' useless ' degrees, mocked because they haven't got a job in their degree subject after 6 months, told that their qualifications are dumbed down and meaningless yet when anything is put in place to help them there is a collective ' not me thanks'.

Instead we have degrees in Hospitality and Video Game Development

Video game development is just computer science, focussed on a particular creative sector that the UK excels in. DH is a software engineer, he was at a session organised by the local (ex-poly) that has one of the leading courses in video game design, the projects the final year students were working on were absolutely incredible, really innovative coding. They are the people that will have the pick of the software jobs (a sector with skills shortages).

Computer games design is what my son would love to do, however we are guiding him towards a Computer Science degree because we feel that it will be a more solid, future proofed option with all the building blocks of the field covered. Don’t 100% know if this is the right plan, degrees like ‘creative computing’ look tempting and covet exactly what he wants to do.

I agree with this. I certainly don’t blame YP. I am not at all sure that the debt incurred in taking in a degree is a good trade off in some of these fields.

To stick with Games Development, it’s a somewhat limited field in which AI is expected to assume a growing role. AI is already displacing a number of tech workers, coders in particular. Computer scientists, computer engineers and to a good extent software engineers and IT specialists who bring higher level skills are still in demand. Those who can master AI will have good futures ( at least for a while). The crucial thing is to have the foundations to be able to keep learning and adapting.

I completely agree with your family’s approach, @fluffythecat1

I know this, @JaninaDuszejko And it is a fun field. But AI will have a lot of impact. Everyone who wants to work in tech needs a solid foundation. Then they can move freely between projects

Thank you, @pumpkinjooce

Fair comment about Germany, @HPFA , although I think skilled tradespeople are more esteemed there than here

Thank you @poetryandwinethat’s reassuring. Southampton, who are on our doorstep offer ‘Creative Computing’ and he could live at home saving hugely on living costs, however we are edging towards Reading where they have a CS degree with a year in industry. He is predicted 6/7 for maths GCSE, however doesn’t want to do maths A level which puts Southampton CS out of the picture. The cost of a degree especially when we will still be contributing towards living costs (which we would prefer to be putting towards retirement!), mean that serious thought needs to be put into it now.

@RainbowBagels I think you are partially correct. I worked after O levels and luckily found an employer to support me through 6 years of part time study (day release and into the evenings) and I ended up with a professional qualification. However I didn’t start my day release until I had proved myself (age 24!) and didn’t qualify as MCIPD until I was 30 as a result of this.

One thing that’s abundantly clear is that we need to concentrate on students who need to work at 16 or 18 and would benefit from qualifications whilst working. They would access a college of FE as they do now but the 18 year olds need higher level courses which are not necessarily available.

The post A level/Btec group who aren’t getting the top grades are the challenging group. There needs to be a realisation that many of these dc should not be at university immediately. I do strongly believe that the middle way has been lost, or is too difficult to access, where dc get a job (apprenticeship) and study at below degree level on day release. Finding these apprenticeships is a minefield. Dc flock to the degree apprenticeships and they get populated by the A star dc because they don’t want the loans. It pushes out the very decent dc who would benefit from the old HNC style of course and then build up to a degree. I think poor quality degrees with no obvious employment are problematic and we definitely have subjects that are not suitable for degree level study. I’m not that bothered about game design but many other “degrees” could be the level below. This means converting degree courses at the universities that were once colleges of HE.

I would also like to see technical colleges come back. Again a middle way to feed students into degrees or stay at below degree level and work. Many firms, if making money, are capable of training staff and have been doing it for decades. The apprenticeship scheme is so difficult to use and the courses so bespoke, they seem a nightmare to organise. Dc go to third rate universities and it’s a lottery as to how good and diverse the apprenticeship is. I’ve seen some truly dreadful ones.

Overall though, if the government continues to tax jobs in the way it does, it’s not helping growth snd it’s certainly not stimulating employment for dc. We are seeing a divide between useful degrees and more self indulgent ones. Maths A level is very popular and humanities are falling out of favour. We certainly need a recalibration of which “university” offers what subjects and how we train the non degree type of yp because it’s very hit and miss at the moment.

Pure "coders", who are given a specification to build, have always been at risk of replacement due to outsourcing to India etc going back to the early 2000s, so most of the jobs lost to AI will be in those regions. In this country, young people who have thrived in the tech industry have needed analytical skills and the ability to adapt to a myriad of new technologies that are constantly in flux. They will adapt to AI too, but they will adapt faster if their primary and secondary education keeps pace. We need more Computer Science teachers in our schools.

I'm instinctively wary of the "too many people going to university" meme even though commenters on this thread are making well-reasoned arguments.

Because going to university (even a lower ranked one) is also a chance to develop yourself, to broaden your life experience, to make friends outside your own family/social group and other things that certainly aren't impossible to do outside of uni but maybe aren't as easy when you're working.

We've already taken so much from our young people....affordable housing, freedom of movement..... it feels like this is just one more thing that we take away from them "oh, you can only go to university if you're a triple A student, the rest of you can start working and contributing to our pensions".

And I do emphasise the above is NOT aimed at commenters on this thread - more the general meme that you see a lot of.

I guess I'm really in favour of better information and making sure that prospective students understand that there won't necessarily be a financial benefit to their uni experience.

I agree these aspects of university life are important, OP. Ideally they could be achieved on other schemes also.

Even at my very high tariff School there isn’t, sadly, much interest amongst UGs in knowledge for the sake of knowledge - a bit, of course, but not much. We are de facto a vocational School to the despair of staff. I don’t blame the students who are preparing for a harsh world, bit I think everyone loses - employers would also benefit if there was room for more higher order thinking in the UG curriculum

@HPFA That is absolutely not what I’m saying! It’s not about just going at 18 with AAA. It’s about being given the chance to work up to university level education.

We would in fact give more to young people - a job, meaningful training and the degree if they and the employer want it. Pretending a degree is the solution is not now bearing fruit. These young people don’t like the loans. Why cannot the CCD type of student have a job and study? We see these opportunities taken by the A star brigade! How is that fair to everyone? We need our universities to be a meaningful progression to give true opportunity. Many are not offering this to too many students because the courses don’t provide the skills necessary and graduate jobs for many are an illusion.

Several courses I did started after lunch and went on into the evenings. I had a super busy day job and studied at the weekend. We don’t all have to have our lives expanded by university to be successful. No one used to think this was vital for 1/3 plus of school leavers. The 85% who didn’t go to university at 18 were not lesser human beings or unhappy. I actually managed to run a car and have a decent life whilst studying. I’d like more dc to have that opportunity and not find they get the job they could have had at 18 but now have the degree and the loan - a very expensive way to make friends!

To be blunt - what is wrong with contributing to a pension? Just a bizarre comment! Early payments could result in a much better pension in the end. We need a strong dose of realism in this country!