English, History and PE A levels, potentially for Oxbridge

[Drangea]

DS is considering the above combination. Aiming to read English or History. Teachers are recommending he applies to Oxbridge. High achieving kid at a super selective boys grammar that send lots to Oxbridge to give context.
We have not discussed with teachers yet, wanted to get a feel first.
Thanks in advance
(also posted in further education, but was advised to move to here)

Absolutely re MFL. I think that native speakers should not be taking an A level in their own language. It makes a mockery of it IMO.

I had a big long message about the MFL at A level thing, but it was a bit too much for everyone to read.

So TL:DR – A level MFL is not a walk in the park for a native speaker and if they think so they will come a cropper (I have seen it more than once). Native speaker ability is not needed for a high grade. If you score a good enough mark, you will gain a high grade at A level, regardless of how many native speakers also do well. They won't mark 370/400 down to a grade C, I promise. Look at FM.

Anyone taking A level MFL will need to work to get an A-star. It’s called advanced level after all, not easy level. But if you have the ability, the dedication, the basis of knowledge from good work in KS3 and 4, a top grade is available for you. Think of the native speakers in your class (if there are any) as a great resource you are lucky to be able to use.

I think the problem is defining what constitutes a native speaker.

Obviously a child with two parents who both spoke the foreign language at home and who had been educated at a school which used that language would be defined as a native speaker. But what about the child with one parent speaking that language who had been through the British school system? What about the child who had lived in a foreign country with two Anglophone parents and attended a local school? Woudl they be different to a child who had been at a British school in that country? What about the child who spends holidays abroad with grandparents who use the target foreign language? There are so many variations of “native speaker”.
And being a “native speaker” does not give much of an advantage on the literature elements and can be a disadvantage on translation into English.

@Tlaloc999 It gives 100% advantage if one or both of the parents is a MFL teacher! There’s always an assumption that the parents know nothing about our exam syllabus! These parents have taught dc the MFL from birth, gone to MFL country for extended holidays and do all the extras like literature and extended too. I get a dc who struggles won’t get to A level standard but they have had a lifetime of coaching. They get a massive advantage. Dc who get none of these advantages are put in a less advantageous position due to grade boundaries shifting upwards. Having said that all the maths teachers coach their own dc too.

As for PE, as Oxford doesn’t say much, so the info from Cambridge is the best guide for an elite university. It’s not on their 3rd or 4th A level list. It’s not on their avoid list either (media is) but there are so many better options for a bright dc to put with English Lit and History to make a competitive application. C might see PE as vocational so would not like it and there’s a danger Oxford would too. It’s always worth seeing what the most popular subjects are for his course. I bet PE isn’t one of them.

OP, if it is important to your DS to find out whether PE would disadvantage their application to a particular course then please contact the admissions team at the relevant department and/or a Oxbridge College. Or ask at an Open Day. Don't rely on what is largely speculation here.

I can speak very confidently for PPE at Oxford and other courses involving Economics, including History and Economics. I have reviewed about 2000 Oxford applications in my time, interviewed well over 500 candidates. I can therefore tell you that PE as a third A-level would not count against the application at all in those courses. Subject choice is not important beyond the required/recommeded subjectts. I'm pretty confident my History/English colleagues would say the same, but do check to be on the safe side.

There is a different question as to whether PE is the very best preparation, or will complement the other subjects in the most helpful way, but it would not be a problem in the application in the courses I know about. And there is a lot to be said for doing courses you are interested in.

I'm really glad that PE is on the list for many unis. I'm glad dc have got into RG unis with PE. I can see why it's a rigorous A level in terms of its content, I personally would still consider it risky when you see how incredibly hard it is to get into many of the "top" unis and - from what I've seen with my dc - gets harder every year. That is my opinion. But I also believe dc should follow their passions. And I believe for Oxbridge it wouldn't necessarily be disadvantageous because their admissions system is so meticulous.

So @Umbilicat - and apologies for appearing to be having a go at you personally - why is it risky? You accept all the points made (RG offers, on lists, science, rigorous etc) and yet you still “consider” it risky.

FWIW and I said this earlier, I think it’s an odd choice for the OP’s dc with their other choices and ultimate aim (as would be biology or physics for example). But if we are talking about A star in PE vs B in (say) some non risky subject like geography, well then the PE sounds like a good choice to me.

I am not taking this personally at all and hope you're not either, because it's not a dig at anyone. All I'm saying is MY worry for my dc that an admissions person would compare an applicant with predicted 3 A stars in say history, english and french with one with the same predictions in history, english and PE and favour the former, because there are plenty of unis choosing between such applicants who admit they have to make decisions on the flimsiest bits of evidence, not least - as others have said - because PE doesn't particularly complement history or english in the way, say, RS might do. But if an admission's tutor from - say - LSE or UCL or St Andrew's can tell us differently then great. Once again, not dissing the A level or saying this is right.

I see what you're saying @Umbilicat
There is definite prejudice against some A levels, PE included, in some quarters. That attitude is generally rooted in ignorance and you would of course hope that University Admissions Tutors would be better informed. It certainly didn't prove to be an issue for my DS. However I can also see that it is not beyond the realms of possibility that some staff in some departments in some Universities might share some of the attitudes demonstrated on this thread. And if that is going to be the case it's most likely to be in departments where PE A level has not been encountered much if at all in the past. As it's a subject which pairs more naturally with STEM subjects it's probable that staff in that type of department will be more clued up about it than those in Arts/Humanities type subjects. It shouldn't be the case, certainly if Biology would be accepted, but there is always a bit of a niggle that doing something "non standard" for the course could be perceived negatively. Not fair, not right, but not an unreasonable thing to have some concern about.

Yes good post from @MrsAvocet and not taking it personally at all @Umbilicat. I think you have a point. It’s quite a specific one as I think you would agrre A star in PE is better as a PG for uni than (say) B in anything.

But yes, it may be that hums admission folk still have residual prejudices. And ofc we don’t know (no one does) what @Drangea‘s DC might get in PE or anything else. Tbf my positive experience of DC taking PE all has them doing it alongside biology, maths, geography, psychology rather than English lit so I think the DC in this case should consider something more aligned, as tbf lots of us have said. Not as such an old facilitating subject - but just something that might chime in better for them, like sociology or class civ or politics.

@irregularegular So no maths would not count against the applicant for PPE either? Really? Funny that as it’s recommended.

No one needs to do French but a subject from the long list suggested by Cambridge is a better bet for an academic course at an elite uni. They csn afford to be choosy and the subjects most often taken give a big clue!

I didn't say that no maths would not count against an applicant for PPE.

I said Subject choice is not important beyond the required/recommended subjects and, as you say, Maths is recommended for PPE.

An applicant without Maths A level would need to be able to make a strong case that they could cope with the Maths required despite the lack of A level. We do take some without Maths, but not many.

The OP's son is considering English/History, not PPE. If they were applying for PPE I would have pointed out by now that Maths is recommended.

I think you have misread the post, @TizerorFizz. She says that A level choice is not important beyond the recommended/required A levels and that PE would be an acceptable A level for PPE.

Bear in mind that tutors are extremely aware of the need to back up their decisions if challenged. The fact that a candidate has taken a non-conventional A-level would not, in itself, be used as a justification for rejecting a candidate, if there is nothing in the published criteria to support that. Moreover, we wouldn't want to discriminate against candidates who might not have had the same choice of A-level subjects, or who might not have received good advice from their schools. So we'd be very wary of using A level subject choice as a basis for decisions (apart from the published required and recommended subjects).

Oxford doesn't "not say much" though, they explicitly say that all A levels are admissible with the exception of General Studies.

As I posted above, one of D1's flatmates at Oxford, doing single hons English, had Eng Lit, Eng Lang and Art A levels.

Once you have the essential A level/s for the course, you just need to ensure you get the offer - 3 As for humanities. Offering an unusual choice might well give you something interesting to talk about at interview - how that subject gives you a different perspective on your others for example.

We were concerned about D2's Spanish A level as there were several native speakers in her class, but her teacher (also a native speaker) said that they were often poorer at the grammar. In the event, D1 exceeded her offer.

@JulesJules Of course odd subject combinations get in but look at the most taken subjects. They are the best guide to what the majority of successful candidates do.

Also why do you think an Oxford interview is about anything other than the subject? It’s obviously about suitability for the teaching style, whether dc will thrive there plus they delve into subject interest beyond the curriculum. They don’t want to know about wonderful photography if dc wish to study History or a MFL.

And then consider if the majority of these off the wall subject combinations even get an interview. They will have to ace tests to get a place and pretending all subjects are equal is foolhardy . It’s a better plan to give yourself the best possible chance and not erect unnecessary barriers. There are of course dc who csn ace everything with whatever subjects they want but maximizing chances is the best plan snd clever dc should be able to do 2 off the Cambridge best prep list.

@TizerorFizz I think you have your direction of causation wrong. For courses that don’t have specific subject requirements, one of the main reasons why there are few candidates taken (at Oxford) with odd subject combinations is that there are few candidates that apply with odd subject combinations. You can’t conclude that those with odd subject combinations who do apply won’t be given equal consideration.

(I’m irregularregular, but on my phone with different log in)

Yes agree. If subjects AB and J is an unusual combo, it follows that not many candidates will get into Oxford with it. Or get into anywhere. Bc v few students take AB and J. Not bc that combo is not acceptable.

We’ve established that English lit, history and PE is a very unusual combo. But that in itself I don’t see as a reason not to take it. It’s the outlieriness of PE with the other two that seems unwise.

@TizerorFizz

You are right that interviewers won't be interested in "wonderful photography" or other extra curricular actitvities on their own, but as @JulesJules said, they may be interested in how that subject gives you a different perspective on your others

To be fair, I'm not sure how PE would give a perspective on English/History (but who am I to rule it out!). On the other hand, photography absolutely could.

Warwick's history degree has several sports history modules as an aside and PE A level certainly overlaps with elements of sociology which can make for fruitful discussion.

I think PE coincides better with history than, for example, physics or maths would.

@Piggywaspushed Not according to Cambridge. They like maths for humanities.

@pinkspeakersWell maybe but that’s because most dc are more sensible. Cambridge is clear on their list but somehow Oxford is ok with photography and PE as third subjects? I doubt it somehow. Equal consideration is not the same as liking what you see from an academic standpoint or why do Cambridge produce their subject list?

However tests are going to sort out who are the better candidates, followed by interview, and if aiming to read English or History, PE isn’t the best prep. Cambridge don’t like vocational subjects at all. They say so.

@TizerorFizzyou’re embarrassing yourself. We have actual Ox and Cam admissions tutors on this thread who have confirmed that PE is fine as a third A level.

@TizerorFizz you’re right that tests and interviews will be more important than which subjects are taken (beyond required and recommended).

@titchy I’m merely suggesting what’s best and what the majority do and what’s listed by Cambridge. That’s a good guide for Oxford. Of course tutors won’t put anyone off! But that’s not the same as saying what is a better combination of subjects. Not the same thing at all. They could say tiddlywinks got even concentration but……. It’s all about increasing the probability.

You might be surprised how much statistics are involved in social and economic history.