Law - which alevels?

[makemineadecaf]

Interested to hear what alevels kids chose to pursue the LLB. Particularly at Russell Group universities. Dd is year 10 and was firm on medicine but has now dropped in that she may like to do law. She needs to pick alevels by February and obviously medicine related alevels would be quite different so she needs to be sure!

@Auchencar I was speculating regarding possible interview issues and personality. I don’t know either. But yes, very odd thing to do,

Oh quite Tizer, I was merely agreeing, in effect.

Perhaps if you take that many exams and get uniformly top grades in them and you're lauded all over various media outlets as 'a genius', there'll be a clear expectation of an offer. That may well come through at interview and could really annoy tutors. Pure speculation obviously but the 'genius' label has been everywhere and the student didn't seem shy about appearing in the media. Still, given the different approach by Cambridge re. achieved grades I'd put a tenner on the student getting a place there if she chooses to reapply (Mind you I put a tenner on Euromillions on Tuesday for the £208m draw and lost - so not currently on a winning streak it seems :(). Or perhaps she'll do a Laura Spence and get a Harvard scholarship. All credit to her if she takes up a place at her second choice and is content with that as an outcome.

Sorry for the digression OP! My point was merely that numerous top grades guarantee nothing at all but in your DD's case one additional A level (even if subsequently discontinued) could keep doors open for both Medicine and Law. With the added advantage of giving her an opt out of the EPQ if the school pushes it: win win :)

History definitely because its analytical and shows you can memorise important facts, which is what law is really.
Otherwise it doesn't really matter. I did English and French (though didn't do as well in French) and started legal work in a solicitor's and a Law Centre (the latter is particularly useful because you're dealing with day-to-day people with legal problems) and THEN went to uni, where I still am part-time.

@NPET MFLs also require a good memory and logical thinking.

@Auchencar I think Trump has something to say about international students at Harvard. Not welcome I believe.

Haha yes but Harvard is fighting back and Harvard is much smarter - always helps.

She’s thinking history, psychology, biology and English lit if allowed a fourth.

Law at A-level can be helpful to decide if it’s the right degree choice: lots of students drop out in 1st year of a LLB, so it can be a helpful insight as to what’s to come.

That's really interesting OP. But if she could see her way to swapping Chemistry for Psychology she'd be in a much stronger position for both Medicine and Law. That combo puts her in a very weak position for Medicine, for sure.

If it’s for RG law pick the three cognate subjects she’s best at. You’re looking to maximise grades. An essay based subject - economics, politics, religion, philosophy, English lit. and/or a language helps, but if she’s likely to get the highest grades in physics, maths, and chemistry then go with that.

If she likes science rather than medicine consider science A-Levels at this point as that can lead to being Patent Attorney as well as a "normal" lawyer route. Or go down the intellectual property route without the full on patent attorney science degree, PhD and then patent attorney qualifications.

I did a law with french degree off French Maths and Physics, trained at a top 10 firm then decided I'm too socialist to be a city lawyer but my non essay "easy" subjects did not affect my career path.

The number of times I see patent attorney/lawyer mentioned on law threads is unreal. They are niche jobs for lawyers. Perhaps someone could actually quantify the % of lawyers who actually do this work? It’s also expensive to do the conversion to law.

Yes absolutely Tizer - incredibly narrow. If you like science do science but not with a view to going into patent law, just with a view to qualifying and then deciding which area you like.

The short answer is to do the three she’ll get the best grades in and likes enough to study. The caveat being that at least two should be traditionally academic subjects.

If your DD hasn’t ruled out medicine, I’d suggest that she does the best combination of subjects she likes and is good at for that. They’ll then be fine for Law and she won’t have cut off her options.

I probably work at a similar form to @blueshoes- agree that we do write quite a bit but it’s more a case of clear communication and effective (and accurate) drafting rather than lengthy academic opinions.

20 years ago I did English Lit, Psychology and Politics but I would say do what you enjoy and are likely to do well in. It doesn't really matter.

Sorry this would be the combo for law I mean, if that’s what she goes down.

Yep Patent law as a patent attorney is niche, but it's accessed through a science PhD in most cases. IP law as a normal lawyer also exists. There's a fair few decent sized patent firms in the UK though, plus US and EU as well as Asian firm. It's not like there's just one patent lawyer or firm...

Plenty of ways into law with a science degree rather than a law degree, the big firms pay for your training including conversion. It's also easier (and cheaper) to qualify as a lawyer with a science degree than to redirect to science with a law degree.

I was pretty certain I wanted to be a lawyer, preferably international type when I was doing GCSEs, considered a science (physics) degree but went for law with French, qualified as a lawyer at a silver circle firm then decided I really didn't want to be a lawyer anymore. Science has more options than a law degree.

@Randomsabreur How many training vacancies each year though? Very very few out of the 7,000 solicitors recruited do this work. Out of interest 30,000 students study law each year and of these around 4,400 are international students. Then there’s all the conversions to add in.

I don't really follow the stats but I have seen a few posts on linked in to suggest it's less rare than some of the seats/career progressions within the 'big law' type firms. Certainly less rare than shipping or aviation law...

My background is 'big law' there were 3-4 seats in IP in my firm (so 6-8 per year), plus IT was separate.

I probably know a disproportionately large number of patent attorneys in my non work life because I do a sport that has a disproportionately large number of people with science PhDs, so it seems like a relatively normal career path along with the PhD to industry or teaching routes.

@Randomsabreur That’s your circle though. Out of 7000 recruited each year what % do this work? My guess is very few. Not 1% would be my guess.

I am s solicitor with 4 solicitor children (my twins qualified last year). I did History, English Lit and German A levels before my LLB. The ones proposed here - history, psychology, biology and English lit would be fine. I know the candidate has considered medicine but if law is now the choice I would do history, English lit and psychology and only do biology if likely to do as well in the main 3 even if that is added.

One of my sons did History, Geography and Economics (and AS music as I think my twins were one of the last to do 4 AS exams in lower sixth and then drop one subject for upper sixth).
50% of lawyers do not read law first but then unless you are sponsored by a law firm on post grad that has financial implications as you have 2 post grad years to fund not one.

In terms of science, I worked at an IP law specialist firm for a good few years. They certainly sometimes recruited bio tech PhD people as trainee solicitors who wanted better pay in law than they were getting in science, but plenty of people without science degrees too;l whereas if you choose a different professional patent attorney (they are not solicitors and do their own professional qualifications) then a science degree is a must as they write patents and need to understand the inventions of the clients.

Perhaps the girl concerned can have a look at medicine and law and then decide. We have a family member starting medicine in September (post A level so does have a confirmed place) and my sibling is and my father was a doctor.

My DS has just finished his LLB at Uni of Notts and did Eng. Lit, History and Biology A levels.

He also did an EPQ and got an A* which got him a grade reduced on some of his offers.

Me again! So law seems to be the front runner for dd and we have until December to submit alevel options. She has to choose 4 and then I think they typically drop one after a couple of months. I’m guessing this is a trial time to select their top three?

So she’s currently chosen: History, psychology, biology.

The fourth is likely to be one of: philosophy, sociology, English language or English literature. I should add whilst she’s very good at writing (currently y10 but teachers say she writes like an alevel student), she is not an avid reader and definitely does not read for pleasure so I would have thought that puts literature out of contention.

I would not choose eng lit as a 4th. Subjects like history and eng lit which consist of only of 20+ mark essays are really hard as you have to have very very good analysis to be able to get top marks. My dd was told the same thing that she wrote like an a level student, got very high 9s in eng lit and history with full marks in eng lit paper 2 yet still found it the jump to a level history very hard, not because of content but having to adjust her writing