Law - which alevels?

[makemineadecaf]

Interested to hear what alevels kids chose to pursue the LLB. Particularly at Russell Group universities. Dd is year 10 and was firm on medicine but has now dropped in that she may like to do law. She needs to pick alevels by February and obviously medicine related alevels would be quite different so she needs to be sure!

I want to say that is a very common misconception that maths is needed for law. Its not unless oxbridge. What is vital is bio and chem. so bio chem plus essay subject imo wouldn’t lessen chances for either degree

That is actually a really popular combo for medicine – the advice is bio + chem + essay subject and history is often chosen.

Maths is most definitely not required for Oxbridge Law.

You then go on to say that biology and chemistry are needed so presumably you're talking about Medicine rather than Law.

In which case maths is also not needed for Oxbridge Medicine.

sorry got mixed up there. I meant to say that maths is not needed for med😀

DD is doing a history degree with the intention of going into law so I’d definitely say history. She’s doing sociology and business studies alongside it. She did have philosophy & ethics (RS) too but has dropped it as the content was too much across all 4 subjects.

@makemineadecaf There is a guide to A levels published by Cambridge university. They make it clear which A levels are best for their law course and actually add in maths. Of the others A levels, History, MFLs, English are good for 2 of the 3. Criminology isn’t great really. Drama? Not necessary as an A level but public speaking and confidence is always worth it! Taking 2 hard academic A levels will get you in nearly everywhere but of course the elite universities are far more of a challenge! The 3rd A level doesn’t matter as much but take one she’s strong in. The best need high results.

Also don’t think all RG are the same for Law. They absolutely are not. There are those that are more likely to supply their own region (eg Manchester) snd those who have more grads go to London - KCL, Oxbridge, Durham, Bristol etc. So A levels taken is only part of the plan. Where dd thinks she might work could also matter. Neither do all law grads become solicitors or barristers. Many don’t get near those careers.

This is all really helpful! Would anyone happen to know whether psychology is essay based?

Dd has been recommended to pick 3 alevels but her school encourage an EPQ too.

The EPQ is a fairly pointless tick box exercise which schools like because it's cheap to run.

If your DD is a high achiever and wants to keep options open for both Medicine and Law then Chemistry, Biology, Maths/ Physics plus History/ English is the way to go. Someone will probably come along and say three good grades are better than four less good grades but it isn't either/ or: four good grades in those four subjects will amply cover all bases and an essay subject is very useful for medics, especially if the young person is aiming for a top uni, and also if they might want to do research later on to boost their chances of progression. Someone might also come along and say how much their DC got out of the EPQ but the reality is that the main advantage for schools is that it costs so little in terms of staffing costs to run and half the points are for the admin rather than intellectual merit. My youngest saw the waste of time it had been for her older siblings and just said to the school no.

(Went on to get a double first in a notoriously hard subject at Oxford so not unintellectual or work shy - just didn't want to waste time in sixth form doing something of such obviously little value).

Don't do EPQ.

I totally regret my ds wasting his time and getting upset so close to the A levels. He put in a lot of effort and still got a D, mostly due to a poorly chosen topic but the teachers still let him do it. The teachers are not allowed to give any guidance whatsover (per the exam board specs) so if your dd gets what she has to do, great, otherwise she might be like my ds and flounder and end up with a D, having learnt very little from it. We thought he was at least in line for a B, but the grading is such if he misses the top band of grading even by a bit, he ends up with a D.

We had to withdraw ds from the EPQ after we got the grade, so it did not leave a black mark on his academic record. I met with the school senior staff and told them their messaging on EPQ needs to be clearer. The school encouraged everybody to take it, but really it should not be the case because it is damaging. Majority of students at my ds' selective independent school did badly. I don't mean a B. I mean Cs and Ds.

That's interesting blueshoes. I'm surprised that any fee paying schools still do the EPQ. Top ones tend to do their own version of a mini dissertation. These don't get points for UCAS but do actually have some intellectual merit.

I think most independents claim to be 'selective'. That's mostly just a parent pleaser though. Only a small number are truly selective. Most just have an exam and then flatter the parents into paying fees by saying that their DC passed an allegedly rigorous exam. It's generally nonsense except at the big names where there really are more kids competing for places than there are actual places.

Mine did EPQ and did it on a law based topic so it helped with personal statement and why law. She did it yr12 so didn’t seem too onerous. No grade reduction for A or Astar EPQ at her chosen universities but some unis will for law - possibly Exeter and Birmingham.

Cakeandusername you don't need to flog through an EPQ to be able to articulate in a personal statement (or its replacement) why you're interested in law.

My two DC both did Alevel law and both went on to do law degrees and Masters.
one did psychology and physics. One did psychology and geography.
Both decided in their second year to pursue law after enjoying it at Alevel.
My advice would be to do at least one subject because they enjoy it. The 2 years goes quick and is fairly intense.
Got a criminal lawyer and family lawyer now!

Its hard making life long career decisions at 15/16 and they do change their minds
good luck

There is 'selective' and there is 'selective'. It is not as selective for those who come up via the junior school but it is selective at my ds' school at the Y7 and Y12 entry. It is selective at Year 3 but lightly so. It is not to 'flatter' parents because most applicants do not get in and there are a lot of broken hearts at that point, my dd included. She could not get into my ds' school despite having a sibling there.

The parents know which are the academically rigorous schools and which are easier to get into which can serve as a fallback. Many parents have dcs in more than one independent school (co-ed, single sex, boarding) and exchange notes.

We are not all fee-paying sheep.

Since around 2008 there have been very, very few genuinely selective independent schools - in spite of the marketing blurb. Independent schools have been desperate for pupils. Economic forces have crunched the selectivity out of most fee paying schools. London is arguably an outlier; it's a microcosm in educational terms.

No it’s not essential, she had lots for PS without it but it also wasn’t a slog. It was optional but the virtually all the students aiming for top universities at her school did an EPQ (state grammar school if that’s relevant)
www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/blogs/students-taking-an-epq-have-better-higher-education-outcomes/

@makemineadecaf I really would try and get dd to decide between law and medicine. They are different in many ways!

What is she best at? Why Psychology? It’s the latest popular subject and for Law it’s perfectly good with History and English or a MFL. Great with maths too but I really would put a strong essay subject in for Law. If she’s trying for a top university, she needs to have the subjects that are best for Law study at those universities. If it’s a middling RG it’s not so important but no essay subject with analytical analysis isn’t best prep. Psychology isn’t really an essay subject - it’s seen as a science.

But Tizer Chemistry, Biology, Maths and History are excellent subjects for Law and keeps the Medicine wide open. On that basis, no need to decide early and regret the choice later. Just do the fourth A level and bin the idea of an EPQ.

Well, it's clearly not a hard and fast rule Cakeandusername. My youngest was also state grammar and didn't seem to suffer by not taking the EPQ; the same could be said for most of her friends (mix of schools - top public to low achieving comp - at her Oxford college) (I think the most applied to college, or possibly second most applied to, not sure). Not doing it gave her more free time to do other stuff she enjoyed in the sixth form.

Anyhow, in the case of the OP, a fourth A level would be vastly more useful in terms of keeping options open - always a good thing especially at such a young age.

Dd did theology, philosophy and ethics, English language and psychology. She started an
EPQ but after a few weeks declared it a waste of time. She said she would rather use the time to get top grades.
She was pretty self driven regarding where she wanted to go with her education so I went with it.

DS did Spanish French and Biology. Went on to do Law with Spanish at uni. Training contract at 22, qualified at 24. Currently working at a London firm.

@skippy67 Yes. MFLs are good for law.

@Auchencar I think the OP’s school is 3 A levels, not 4. I still think the DD needs to know what she really wants to do!