MFL degrees - single vs dual language

[tobyj]

DS is edging slowly towards degree course choice, and has decided on MFL. He was considering joint honours (language and classics or language and history), but has decided to stick with straight MFL. Next decision is whether to a) just take a single language (German), or b) take German plus a semi ab initio (he did French GCSE so could pick that back up) or c) take German plus a fully ab initio (eg Italian or another European language).

Ultimately he just needs to go with what he wants of course, but I wondered if the MN hive mind had any pearls of wisdom or things to consider - or indeed any uni/course recommendations or ones to avoid? First time going through this, and feeling a bit rabbit in the headlights!

Take another language more widely spoken globally like French or Spanish

What is the career plan after graduating?

Two graduates I know, both have firsts with distinctions (one from Cambridge) are receptionists in the NHS because they can't get a graduate job.

One of the most obvious jobs which will actually use his MFL is teaching – apols if he thinks he won’t ever want to, but if he does then I would advise two MFLs commonly taught – German/French/Spanish. German I infer is his A level MFL tho of the three it is (sadly) the least popular in schools, and Spanish is on the rise.

But a degree in German and French would make him more than employable in that field (post PGCE obvs) if of interest. More so than just German.

If that is not his plan, does he have a career goal related to the MFL(s)? If not I honestly don't think it will make that much difference, and obvs one MFL is more straightforward at uni (speaking as someone with a joint hons degree – a lot more work!).

Btw has he actually found unis which will offer semi-ab-initio? bc I would think GCSE two years before won't actually put him very far forward and he would probably be treated as a cold ab initiao (unless you have found a uni as above). I say this bc DD with French A level looked at French as a subsid at uni but found that it was offered only at two levels: actual “starting from scratch” (obvs too easy for her) or as “you have a strong A level” which she found too challenging (so with just GCSE would be a big challenge I imagine).

(Meant to add that you can take French ab initio at plenty of unis these days (somewhat to my surprise as a multi-MFL-er at school but ofc I recognise that many don't get the chance to take more than one).

I have a dual language degree. Didn’t have a plan for after university but now I’m a lawyer and sadly don’t use my languages but I think it did give me skills that I use in my job and most importantly I loved my degree so I did very well academically. I don’t think one or two really makes any difference unless your son wants to teach or use languages professionally and then I think it’s always better to have two. Best to do what he enjoys- your career definitely doesn’t have to be directly related to your degree but you should get a strong result that will help.

I was told that History & a MFL was a very good starting point for Law, actually.

When my mum did languages she studied Spanish & French but also had to take Greek & Latin. She taught French, Latin and Spanish for years but never used the Greek. This of course was a long time ago.

But there are companion languages that are often complimentary due to both language roots (ie. the Romance languages) as well as common / cultural uses. So Arabic & French for instance.

French & Italian are not a bad combo.

If your kid is a whizz they could take Mandarin and German or something like the languages offered at Oxford. Mandarin / Korean / Japanese etc

A single honours MFL degree is almost worthless on the job market. Just don't.

i have a degree in French and Italian and worked for years in business. I kept up the languages for fun and then did a career change in my mid 50s to teach MFL -ironically mostly Spanish as that is what is most in demand in secondary schools.
I love languages with a passion but would discourage anyone now from doing a MFL degree in a UK university. Much better ways nowadays to assimilate another language faster and better. Just having a degree is pretty pointless nowadays too - much better to get a modern apprenticeship etc, unless a degree that is required for a specific profession.

@Widowerwouldyou I really disagree with you and it’s missing the point that apprenticeships don’t teach MFLs and are hugely competitive. It’s not possible for 350,000 students pa to switch into around 10,000 degree apprenticeships.

@tobyj My DD did a joint MFL degree. Also anyone who really wants a career afterwards will get one and if they don’t they’ve given it little thought and preparation.

DD would never have done one MFL and was never given advice to do one MFL by anyone. She was lucky that she did 2 MFL A levels though. Plenty of MFL students do have only one MFL A level though so your DS’s position is not unusual. My DD was only saying yesterday how students were split into classes as to who had done the A level and who hadn’t for her less popular MFL. It’s up to students to decide if they are quick MFL learners or not but most get up to speed by end of y2 and then they go abroad to hone skills anyway.

Regarding jobs - teaching might have been DDs back stop but her goal was to be a barrister. A friend’s DS with joint MFL (French and German) went to Slaughter and May. It’s always the case that some dc don’t get careers sorted and do not have much ambition. My DD had loads of ambition and made her degree open the door it needed to. However the key is to keep focussed on what you want and get the cv up to speed. Many jobs won’t expect dc to use the MFLs. However there’s loads of other skills dc learn and these are the valuable ones. Few at university with DD use their MFLs much now but all got decent jobs - but her friends were ambitious too!

Lastly, if doing MFLs - do 2. Definitely 2. It’s a heavier workload but employers know this. No one really thinks depth in one MFL is a selling point. You get a wide range of modules at a top MFL university and only around 1/3 of the degree is language acquisition. Aim high and when at university always go to careers events and do as much work experience and volunteering in societies as possible. Be ambitious and think about a career early.

One of our DC is at a London university and knows masses of students in London who are plurilingual. None of them are doing MFL degrees (they might perhaps be doing a third or fourth or fifth language as an optional module) - though they often use their (absolutely fluent) languages for research purposes and expect to go on to use their languages in the labour market. UK MFL degrees just don't take undergraduates to a level of fluency and skill that make them useful in the working world.

I did 2 x MFL A Levels plus an extra new MFL GCSE. I opted to do a major / minor MFL degree (with a social science minor). My MFL major was Russian and there were quite a few on my course doing German / Russian or French / Russian with the Russian ab initio. They all definitely enjoyed the course, found it stretching and challenging. A few said they felt like their Russian was never as strong as their main language (but that's to be expected i suppose when you're comparing to already having 10yr ish of school language behind you). I wouldn't say that I thought they were behind us "single" language students though. I'm not sure an outsider would have known any different by the end of 4yrs.

What i liked about being mostly single language was the space in my timetable to pick up other cultural / social modules. I may be misremembering but i think my degree was 40% language, 20% my minor and then 40% other courses related to Russian (so over the 3 years i did things like soviet political history, economics of the ussr, propaganda in film, Russian history pre soviet union, russian literature, business Russian language, intro to interpretation etc). I know some of my joint MFL friends always felt like there were more interesting modules that they wanted to take in comparison to space in their timetable.

Obviously the only issue with Russian now is the year abroad, but I understand lots of students are going to places like Estonia or Kazakhstan instead. But if he selected a different ab initio language, he wouldn't have that issue.

In terms of career, I got a job using my language for the first few years after uni. I then made a career change so I don't use it now, but I think that's very normal for most people 10-15yrs down the line! There are lots of linguists in places like the civil service who aren't using their language at work, but it hasn't hindered them in finding work.

Re degree choice, I think it’s simply down to which of the options he’d enjoy more and do best at. I’d encourage him to look in depth at the content for any course he’s thinking of applying for. Not a cat in hell’s chance woukd I have wanted to study German language or literature from tbe Middle Ages for example.

Don’t be put off by people questioning job prospects with a languages degree. There are many, many graduate opportunities open to all degree subjects and MFL is not an exception to that.

A first from Cambridge doesn’t necessarily equip you with employability skills. Too many graduates have the ‘I’ve got a first from Cambridge (Oxford/Durham etc), what more do you want?’ attitude, so don’t put effort into selection preparation. Unlikely to be a MFL degree that is the barrier to jobs other than in the NHS.

He needs to either do German plus a subject he is seriously interested in (as the year abroad option would probably be studying said subject in Germany/German-speaking country), or two languages. I would seriously consider Russian or a language which is more of a world language such as French or Spanish.

German is a great option and will make him very employable as it is being taught less and less and so graduates will be few and far between. A second language can provide more options (and will govern him a second country to experience living in), but it is quite intense if done from beginner level.
Doing a degree in MFL is a wonderful experience and I would 100% recommend it. I did it and now my son is at Uni doing a joint MFL degree.

@OMGitsnotgood My DD studied poetry of the crusades in French. At 17 she would never have thought she would really enjoy medieval French or be asked to do a MA with a focus on those works. She didn’t do it of course but some people have their eyes widened at university which is a great thing. Nothing wrong with medieval French! Agree with your NHs comments! They have all sorts of grads doing band 1/2 jobs including my DN with a first class degree in a solid science who is doing data input.

The joint honours or 2 MFLs do give a broader outlook and @WafflePartyit is harder work as ab initio. But…. Hard work is good. Employers know you have started something and persevered. They know dc have had to work hard. It is certainly a good thing for the cv, it is not a negative. One MFL sits very much in DCs comfort zone.

Also 2 MFLs is absolutely fine for law. No Law conversion course says no to this degree. No employer would either. It’s an essay based research degree in 2 MFLs. However to get this useful MFL education choose an academic course and challenge yourself. Classicists are often people who do well at law too. (Appreciate not everyone wants law though - but it was mentioned earlier).

I think there is a tendency to equate degree subjects very narrowly with specific skills gained, which is why some people think there's no point to MFL degrees because other people already speak other languages fluently. But in fact UK MFL degrees are very broad and cover a broad range of topics including politics, history, literature, film etc. as well as teaching the language skills. It's more like doing a liberal arts degree but also gaining valuable language skills at the same time, and there's a very wide range of possible careers, some of them involving postgraduate conversion courses like law, or other further training like accountancy. Picking up a second language is a great idea, and it's usually possible to drop back down to single honours if he changes his mind. (I probably wouldn't recommend taking three languages, though, as this is quite intensive but also limits the amount of non-language modules students can take, so they don't get the same breadth of education).

Liberal Arts degrees are notoriously difficult to convert to the labour market.

It's absolutely fine to do UK degrees in MFL or Liberal Arts or whatever takes your fancy if you are rich enough to be able to consider them a sort of finishing school that will require you to undertake proper professional training in a different area post-degree.

Also - I remember seeing some quite recent statistics on salary outcomes for MFL graduates and IIRC they were significantly less favourable for boys than for girls. Male MFL graduates possibly had negative earnings outcomes.

@TizerorFizzoh I wasn’t implying there was anything wrong with studying medieval languages at all, just that it wasn’t for me.

It's absolutely fine to do UK degrees in MFL or Liberal Arts or whatever takes your fancy if you are rich enough to be able to consider them a sort of finishing school that will require you to undertake proper professional training in a different area post-degree.

Most graduate positions require some amount of training, it’s not just MFL and Liberal Arts! I know a lot of MFL grads. The vast minority are teachers or translators. I know lots of accountants, business consultants, business analaysts, IT professionals etc who have MFL degrees. One could argue that the additional skills gained in studying languages as PP mentioned are a bonus.
The vast majority were from ordinary families,to equate it to a finishing school for rich kids is ill informed. Just as most of tbe science, history, geography, English etc grads are in professional careers unrelated to their degree subject.

He needs to look at what the paper options are - linguistics, German cinema, philosophy, history or just endless literature? In my experience by the time it came to finals the straight language bits of my MFL degree were outweighed in terms of interest value and intellectual challenge by all the other papers. So if he has no interest in the culture of another country then not a good idea to do it as a second language and have to do the accompanying literature or history papers. But if he loves linguistics and can go down that route then another language will add a lot to his understanding of linguistics.

Yes, @OMGitsnotgood 's post is exactly what I meant. I did an MFL degree years ago so obviously know a lot of people who did it with me, and also plenty of younger graduates. There's a very wide range of possible careers, and I know graduates who have gone on to do graduate schemes in accountancy, civil service etc., or gone on to careers in marketing (with or without using their languages). I was offered a career in merchant banking. The language skills but also the cultural understanding, critical thinking skills, excellent communication skills in English etc. can make motivated students strong candidates for all sorts of graduate schemes. But of course they still have to be motivated to follow that path and work at making it happen.

@Ceramiq Many jobs require further training and employers pay. It’s not about being rich at all.

@HotCrossBunplease Very few MFL students take linguistics. It’s really not necessary. The skills learnt for many jobs are found in the broader study of MFLs and culture. Few MFL degrees are purely literature and modules are very varied these days! Also I think the better equipped broadly educated student within the MFL faculty really can apply for many jobs and be succesful. MFLs are not a vocation. The MFLs degrees open doors as do history and many others. It’s getting the right skills and cv together that matters for most. It’s definitely about motivation as well!

I’m not sure what you are trying to tell me here? I have an MFL degree. Two languages, one ab initio. I did literature, history and linguistics papers in my first and second years. The university offered a heavily linguistics-focussed finals syllabus for finals year if that was of interest. I never suggested linguistics was “necessary”. I stuck to literature but my best mate did almost pure linguistics alongside her languages papers. Surely that is still an option open to an MFL student who has an interest in linguistics?

Why are you talking to me about careers? I didn’t even mention that in my post. I was just answering the one language or two question 🤷‍♀️.

Is your daughter, who doesn't use her MFL professionally, paying back a student loan?