MFL degrees - single vs dual language

[tobyj]

DS is edging slowly towards degree course choice, and has decided on MFL. He was considering joint honours (language and classics or language and history), but has decided to stick with straight MFL. Next decision is whether to a) just take a single language (German), or b) take German plus a semi ab initio (he did French GCSE so could pick that back up) or c) take German plus a fully ab initio (eg Italian or another European language).

Ultimately he just needs to go with what he wants of course, but I wondered if the MN hive mind had any pearls of wisdom or things to consider - or indeed any uni/course recommendations or ones to avoid? First time going through this, and feeling a bit rabbit in the headlights!

I did French and German at A level, Law and German at Uni. Third year abroad taught English in Germany as opposed to studying German law (I had the choice to do either). Now work in the City using my languages from time to time.

Argh, the usual suspects on the negative nonsense MFL threads bring, but nice to hear from those with positive experiences.

Research, research research OP is what your DC should do as MFL varies between universities, especially with changes to language/humanities depts.

It's a great choice. For all able students not just those in the wealth bracket, whatever that means, including those from the UK. If your DC can identify what they may want to do in future is a start, for example do they want to use their language skills in a prospective workplace (which would determine the level of acquisition needed), or does it just form part of their study programme alongside the culture, history, politics etc, what modules are core/optional and so on.

What would be the options open to them on their year abroad? Do they want it to form part of their degree classification or is there just a pass/fail requirement at place of study? Do they wish to work in their YA, teach or continue in an educational setting (university or language school), is there funding available, what are the costs, access criteria etc.

Lots of options, my DD has a handful of German/Turkish (one is taken ab initio), vs the more conventional language pairings on her course, with most having thought through their possible career options before undertaking their programmes of study, which are pretty challenging but enjoyable at the same time. Those not committed to post grad continuation are securing graduate scheme opportunities in their penultimate years of study in varied, competitive areas of employment, contrary to some posters' POV on here, definitely holding their own vs STEM, business and other subject peers.

Good luck!

@Ceramiq She paid it all off several years ago! She’s a barrister and a high earner. Why do you ask?

@ealingwestmum Your views concur with mine. Far too many people think MFLs are just about translation snd interpreting. For many it’s far broader than. I do actually think the academic courses give dc a really good education from which to springboard into a career. Intelligent people doing a MFL degree are very employable if they organise themselves. I find the negative views very tiresome and one dimensional.

I ask because most MFL students will be paying their loans off for a long time because earnings are low.

i don’t know how you can declare MFL graduates salaries as ‘low’ @Ceramiq Universities only know what jobs their grads are doing if they respond to the question , which many don’t so it’s really difficult to track. It’s also difficult to know what people earn if they aren’t in jobs with published salaries. The lowest paid of my MFL friends on graduation were teachers and translators. But most didn’t go into those sorts of roles and willl have earned the same as any other graduate doing those jobs that several of us have given examples of on this thread.

I'm always puzzled by this "MFL is no use" thing.

There might not be that many jobs for which it's essential but it's an extra skill to put on a CV. Why wouldn't an employer in, for instance, sales, think - "of these two equally good candidates this one can please my French clients by talking to them in French?"

I suggested to DD that she think about doing International Relations and French rather than straight IR because I couldn't see any way that IF she came out of the course with decent French that wouldn't be more useful than straight IR. She's EU passport qualified so she'll also have the potential to work in France as well.

If you're going to end up as a barmaid after your "waste of time" degree might be nice if you could go and do that in Nice!

@Ceramiq I’m not going to respond to that rubbish! It’s total nonsense. Also insulting to my DD.

DD is currently in her final year of French single honours and loves it I'm impressed by the breadth of her option choices - linguistics, cinema, Romanticism, medieval French, 19th century novel, as well as grammar, translation French to English and English to French.

One aspect of MFL that no-one has mentioned here is the year abroad. It's something many employers value, for good reason, as establishing yourself in a country not your own in your early 20s is an achievement, especially with Brexit. DD didn't enjoy her year abroad - awful accommodation, pestering constantly by men, quality of teaching at the French University poor, no interaction with French students - but she stuck it out and has made very good friends through the international church she attended.

Good luck to your DS. Despite earnings data and student debt, I still maintain there is value in doing what you love. Consultancy, law, marketing and PR, are all options for graduates of many disciplines, including MFL.

Rubbish. There are plenty if career options open to MFL graduates, many of them moderately or well paid.

I agree that there are some ill-informed views on this thread.

I mentioned teaching as it is a valid career choice if someone loves their MFL and wants to genuinely use it in the workplace.

Otherwise a degree in MFL is just as valid as a degree in - oh, I don't know, Eng lit or criminology or history or international relations or politics or sport science – all degrees YP I know are doing or have recently completed, without anyone (that I am aware of) commenting that their earnings will forever be low.

Many many roles require a degree, no specific degree, and MFL is just as valid as any – more so than some IMHO. You could go into comms and perhaps your French or German might be useful – or it might not but at any rate it is as likely to be useful as the social policy degree someone else did. You could certainly get a role where you would need to pay off your student loan. If that is a valid measure of success (I'm not sure it is, or at least not the only one).

@tobyj I very much agree with those who say that he should look closely at the modules that he will do and see what appeals. It’s a long four years if you hate major elements of what you are learning. Single hons may require deeper delving into some of the less popular aspects of (say) German lit, but that may still appeal (just bc it didn't to me!). There is a huge range of possibilities, and different types of uni will have a different focus. No need for him to spend all his uni time learning about German lit if this is not engaging. OTOH he could do that for sure.

I still maintain there is value in doing what you love @IdaGlossop I very much agree with this (and sort of expressed this view on another thread about student finance but felt I was out of step!). Love of learning for its own sake is a great thing that we can carry through our lives.

Very well said @clary

@IdaGlossop My DD gained a lot from her year abroad - but she avoided France. She went to Switzerland. Great world class university which ran like clockwork. Her Faculty did point out the pitfalls and difficulties encountered with some French universities so DD gave them a wide berth. I completely agree that the skills gained on the year abroad are great and DD used to say it was a top achievement to negotiate that year successfully.

Quality of teaching abroad can be questionable but in Switzerland it was first class. Obviously a bit late for your DD but do tell others to look at Swiss universities - DD had accommodation overlooking the Alps and met people who are still her friends. Hope your DD goes on to be successful at work.

Thank you, @clary

@tizerorFizz my DD's uni made great play of the student organising everything for their year abroad. The accommodation situation was alarming. As only one student from DD's University goes there each year, I think the UK university's duty of care should extend to it approving suitable accommodation and that being offered to the student. Point noted about Swiss unis.

My Year Abroad was the reverse. Maybe because even pre-war, Russia still wasn't as easy to navigate as EU countries, but basically we had a choice of which city plus either uni accom or family homestay and then the uni worked with a partner org, who organised the visas, courses, accommodation and flights for lots of the unis in the UK. It meant that I met students studying Russian from other UK unis, as well as making local Russian friends, which was nice when coming back home after the YA and having a bit of a wider network. At the time, our visas allowed you to work so many hours per week (not sure if that's still the case), but the local liaison person then made introductions to various employers for those interested in picking up work on top of studies. As you say, I'm sure my DM took some comfort at the time that our uni had at least had some semi involvement in the whole process and it certainly all felt well organised to me, which was a great start!

My DD is 2nd year studying French and Italian (ab initio). They are loving their course. It is quite Literature heavy but that suits her. She did French, Spanish and English Lit A Levels. (French & German GCSEs). Definitely worth looking at different courses as they vary enormously between unis. And I'd recommend joint languages. DN is currently same year - different uni- studying History and French and loving that too.

DD has quite a heavy teaching load - 16 hrs per week contact time in the first year. Large choice of modules. Now planning her year abroad in Italy - not straightforward but think we are finding a way through the complexities of applying to Italian Unis. Brexit hasn't helped at all as not being in Erasmus is a complete pain.

Her plan is to do a law conversion course - and is quite interested in immigration law. Lots of lawyers recommend doing something other than law as a first degree like @TizerorFizz 's DD. Yes it adds an extra year for conversion but given they'll work for ever it seems a shame not to do what you want.

Wow, so many replies! Thank you.

To answer a few questions. Re the future career path - he really doesn't know yet. Teaching could definitely be a possibility, so the point about choosing a second language that's commonly taught is a very good one (the quirkier side of him quite fancies something more esoteric like Arabic or Czech, but that might not be the most sensible option). Otherwise, if not teaching, he still just needs more time to decide - and I sympathise, having had not a clue at his age. I'm not actually too fussed about the specific career aspect at this point - I'm a classicist myself, so I'm very familiar with the concept of people ending up in all sorts of interesting careers (and lucrative ones, if that's what motivates them), even though they've got a 'useless' degree.

In terms of subjects, he's doing IB not A levels - his highers are German, Latin and Medieval History. He also did French and Ancient Greek at GCSE, so plenty of varied language experience.

When I mentioned a 'semi ab initio' second language, sorry for confusion - I don't mean 'semi' in a formal sense, just that if he does French ab initio, it wouldn't actually be totally ab initio to him. Is that a problem at all? Does a university 'mind' if a student takes a second language ab initio when they're not actually a total beginner? I can imagine a potential benefit to him if it makes the first year a slightly easier ride (as someone who took up Greek at university, I know how tough that can be!).

I hadn't realised until we started looking that some universities wouldn't allow French as an ab initio language - annoying, as he could have continued French in the sixth form instead and then done German ab initio at university, but he just liked German a bit more (though his French was actually stronger!). Oxford doesn't seem to have it as an option, for instance - not sure he'll apply anyway, as I think he'd prefer a less literature heavy and more mixed course, and getting in would be a long shot - but still, the possibility that he might not necessarily be able to do German and French (as opposed to French and German) is something that we hadn't factored in.

Definitely wants to do a year abroad. I imagine he'd prefer a teaching/university based year, but would be good to keep options open.

Thanks for the other various bits of advice. As many of you say, next stop I think is for him to look really closely at the course modules - and perhaps for me to gently nudge him in the direction of French/Spanish or maybe Italian as a second language, rather than something a little less mainstream.

@IdaGlossop I have no idea how a uk university could have jurisdiction over accommodation abroad - or lack of it.

DD was told French accommodation can be iffy. She had picked up that there could be other issues I won’t repeat here. The Swiss university had accommodation for incoming Erasmus students (as it was then) but DD had to apply for it early. The uk university didn’t sort it out and sent possibly 4 students each year but previously all to CERN. My DD had the room of a Swiss girl who had gone to the USA for a semester. Swiss students don’t necessarily go to their home university so the university had quite a few residences. DD had always liked the idea of the Sorbonne but changed her mind.

Her second university had no accommodation at all. It was in Italy and she contacted landlords offering student accommodation before she left Switzerland. We paid for a hotel while she viewed accommodation. She chose one and moved in. The university in Italy or in the uk had nothing to do with the accommodation. However it certainly makes dc independent and good problem solvers! It’s definitely a step into the unknown.

What about Mandarin OP? Hugely widely spoken obviously.

@tizerorFizz it wasn't anything as formal as jurisdiction that I had in mind, more an agreement between the two universities whereby the foreign university accommodation office (if there is one) reserved accommodation for the visiting student so there was some degree of quality insurance. DD ended up in a rundown 1970s student block an hour's bus journey from the university that she found herself online and accepted without seeing it other than online. The door to the street didn't lock and the lights outside and on the stairs didn't work. She was harassed outside the accommodation and on the stairs up to her room. There was no light in her en suite shower and the concierge, when she reported it, made a note but did nothing to replace it as the building was due to be refurbished.

My DD was in this position last year and has just applied for German & Russian (ab initio) She considered Italian and Arabic but ultimately was drawn to Russian! Good luck with choices it all seems to work out in the end!

@tobyj(me again!) Just seen your update. My DD has a friend who teaches and state schools really want French and Spanish. Few offer German. Her friend had French and Italian but had to get up to speed in Spanish I believe. If he’s interested in teaching, the teachers on here might give the best advice.

DD went to Bristol and they now offer French ab initio. They didn’t when she went. It’s in response to so many state schools not offering 2 MFLs at gcse and that makes 2 impossible at A level. So German and French ab initio is possible there. Not sure about Durham. I think as you say, Oxford has remained traditional and Cambridge too regarding French. I would look for a university where MFLs are thriving and there’s lots going on. Literature should be a core area of study but you should see lots of modules that are very varied. MFL is an area of study which requires self regulation and constant improvement. You cannot wing it. Third year abroad should be sorted out fairly early in y2 after Christmas. Some university placements will be competitive. Some universities have partner universities and some, like Oxford, hardly any. Bristol had lots. So that’s worth checking too.

Yeh if he might want to teach I would recommend Spanish for sure rather than Italian (not widely offered) or Mandarin (also not that widely available tho more than Italian). Lots of schools are dropping German :( If you want to teach then two languages is a really good idea IME. I was able to offer French and German (I retrained as an oldie) but even 15 or so years ago it wasn't easy to find a school that offered German. Agree the best MFL for a would-be teacher are French and Spanish. Look at job ads on TES to see.

@IdaGlossopDD did have “reserved” accommodation in Switzerland but you took it on trust it was ok. It was more than ok! In Italy, I don’t believe there was an accommodation to reserve anything and around 5000 students descend on Bologna uni from abroad every year. They all have to sort out where they stay in local accommodation.Theres no quality control for anyone. Where unis are populated by many students living at home, they don’t have halls of residence. There is lively market in private lettings. However most people don’t arrive early and tour round and pick the best. You have to get in fairly quickly from a shortlist you’ve made and followed up with a viewing very quickly.

Was there no student area any nearer? Rent a room type of set up? The set up sounds grim.

DD is currently in her second year studying German and Spanish (ab initio), she did Spanish at GCSE and it definitely helped her get off to a good start.

With German you can aim high - DD missed her offer by 2 grades (for different A levels) but she was still admitted to her top choice. The numbers taking German A Level now are very low indeed. She had 9s in German & Spanish GCSSs so I don’t know if that made a difference.

However, I’d consider how to finance a year abroad. DD already knew she doesn’t want to be a teacher so avoided the teaching abroad (British council) paid options. She’s splitting between 2 countries and it’s tricky to organise plus the internships are often unpaid. She’s arranged a semester studying at a German uni plus a 4 month internship in Spain but she doesn’t think she’ll get any additional funding for it. Luckily we are able to support but I appreciate it might be an issue for many people.

She considered other degree options but in the end went with languages as it’s what she enjoys the most and hasn’t regretted her decision at all so far! She says it’s like doing English Lit/History/Film studies but in 2 other languages. As per other posters comment, check out the modules and see what appeals!

Sorry that turned into a bit of an essay but I hope it helps.