MFL degrees - single vs dual language

[tobyj]

DS is edging slowly towards degree course choice, and has decided on MFL. He was considering joint honours (language and classics or language and history), but has decided to stick with straight MFL. Next decision is whether to a) just take a single language (German), or b) take German plus a semi ab initio (he did French GCSE so could pick that back up) or c) take German plus a fully ab initio (eg Italian or another European language).

Ultimately he just needs to go with what he wants of course, but I wondered if the MN hive mind had any pearls of wisdom or things to consider - or indeed any uni/course recommendations or ones to avoid? First time going through this, and feeling a bit rabbit in the headlights!

Whereas a friend of mine in her 60s gained her First in Chinese at Oxford and has had a very hush hush but interesting career at GCHQ from which she has just retired. Perhaps your relative went the wrong way.

I'm sure they aren't but they have actually had a meaningful career for a few years.

The statistics for MFL degrees are very depressing in terms of life earnings. Check them out.

Versus what, sales, marketing, publishing, commercial, teaching, consulting, accounting…what does meaningful mean?

Not even mentioning the usual GCHQ, civil service, FCDO type roles, or EMEA type positions that welcome many profiles.

With respect your older relative was not entering an employment market when China was the second largest economy in the world.

Not all students see the opportunity cost as a factor in their choice of degree. Even if they do, I don't think there's a case to answer for the opportunity cost of choosing languages being higher than many other humanities subjects. Few degrees are vocational - certainly medicine, vetinerary, engineering and law. Many others can lead to careers that are not well paid, creative arts and archaeology among them. Career crossroads are inevitable for most graduates when a high percentage of jobs recent graduates will do don't yet exist.

@LoobyLott The rubbish about MFLs is relentless from this poster. Other parents do need to know that it’s not correct info. Saying dc are not studying anything worthwhile and it’s below par academically is not only personal to me on here, it’s just plain wrong. But still it persists - over and over again on repeat on numerous threads.

Many see MFLs as non vocational. DD is clearly ok at her MFLs. Work involving them - no. She’s never been judged on them nor did she seek to work using them. Who really cares if this is the case? Some dc who see themselves working in areas not related to MFLs.

Yes, at university abroad you write in the target MFL. You will probably do translation too. Many employers here want employees to write in English but if you want work abroad, that’s a different matter as it would be working for the FCO. Most students work out what career suits them but plenty don’t have a career using MFLs.

Lots of 4 year MFL degrees do not have dissertations either.

Senior civil service pays OK - and the pension is pretty good too. She's very happy, with pretty good life earnings.

You have a drum you wish to bang (and bang and bang). And obviously you know you are right. That's fine. You obviously are.

Can we, therefore, as you are right in everything, please have the list of @Ceramiq approved degrees with the commensurate levels of income required to appease you? I know it will rule out everyone pretty much in the Arts (total waste of time, who wants to watch a film or the tv, for God's sake), until they become a 'star'. It will take out everyone in publishing, and everyone in jobs like the Probation Service, nursing, midwifery, and most people in medical and bio-medical research and those in academia, and teaching in our schools, and barristers who are good but never quite make it to Silk, so it would be helpful to know. It'll give my son a steer, though you've helpfully pointed out to me he has already wasted those 4 years.

mfl grad salaries are similar to history, geography, and many other humanities. So says IFS. Much better than English! Not much below law either. The key is not to work in a low paid role and have ambition. There’s very well paid jobs if students want them enough. Like every other student - cv matters.

I just fail to believe that, having been involved with a professional services company's recruitment, a fluent speaking MFL grad with languages that my clients/associate companies/customers speak would be in any way less appealing than say a history or geography graduate.

Yes I could hire a Chinese or Japanese background bilingual grad but there is something appealing about a European/Brit who unusually can speak these languages.

So I stand by the idea that they have jobs market appeal whatever Ceramiq says.

Could the lower MFL grad salaries be partly due to MFL grads going disproportionately into teaching by choice?

I haven’t seen the data nor know what time period it is over, but could it also be there’s a higher % of females who take MFL in UK vs men, but leave the workforce/work PT re family raising so it brings down the earnings ratios?

Apologies, I dont overly review Ed data nor league tables.

I think this is a place for opinions, not hard and fast facts - except in the case of useful statistics on occasion.

Shouting at people isn't going to change their opinions and they should be free to express them without the anticipation of a shouting match.

I think judging how @Ceramiq writes, she may well be depressed by what she has experienced and knows. Further reason not to attack her.

I don't think any of those things. Stop making assumptions based on your own prejudice - that being critical of UK MFL teaching conflates to being some sort of philistine against the arts. That is the very opposite of my position: I am defending them.

Female MFL graduates do significantly better on the earnings dimension than male MFL graduates.

Don't be so narcissistic. I have been involved in MFL in one way or another for my whole life and it has absolutely nothing to do with you.

I am genuinely interested to know though, @Ceramiq given your support for language learning but reservations about UK MFL degrees, what options do you suggest for people to learn new languages to a reasonable level? Allowing that immersion abroad isn't going to be feasible for everyone.

Immersion abroad is entirely realistic for someone who is envisaging an MFL degree with an obligatory year abroad which is a four year degree. A gap year allows for about 15 months in another country and can either precede or follow a degree in another subject. My preference would be for a gap year before university as that allows students to spend summers improving their language skills still further.

You are right: my opinions come from a place of experience and deep depression at the state of MFL teaching and learning in the UK. Tony Blair did something unforgivably philistine when he removed the requirement to learn a foreign language to 16: everything points to that decision having sounded the death knell for improvement in take up and quality of MFL learning. Meanwhile, in France every single child has to learn two MFL and in the academic routes that is continued until 18. And France is, by EU standards, pretty rubbish at MFL. I meet Dutch or German young people regularly who speak 3 MFL very conversantly at 18 and read long novels for pleasure in all their languages - even children who have not been schooled on academic paths.

I can confirm that DD (2nd year MFL at Durham) has some lectures and writes essays in English. I suspect this allows more students to access the content (whether post a level or ab initio) depending on the module. Some of the texts/questions she studies seem quite in depth to me (but I’m not the best judge) and I don’t know how they compare to say English Lit degree equivalents. She does other translation modules as well but she’s not fluent, most get their language up a level in their year abroad.

I’m a bit at some of the comments on this thread. I’d argue that a 4 year language degree demonstrates many skills that might be useful in the workplace. Many graduate roles don’t specify the degree (STEM etc aside) and language students are just as employable compared to English/humanities degree holders, with the added bonus that they can converse in more than English. I’d agree that they are unlikely to be fluent in their MFLs and some of the EU countries are in a different league when it comes to pure language acquisition!

Well, I confess I was wondering about options beyond the school leaver group - a gap year is rather less feasible for, say, a 40 something mum ;-) or anyone else with fixed commitments for the foreseeable. I wondered if you'd come across some other successful approaches for particular needs. Learning as an adult is hard: I think everyone on the thread can agree we need better MFL provision in schools to level us up.

A gap year brings its own challenges of course, especially for an ab initio language, and sorting out a work visa etc. The advantage of the year abroad within the degree is that the student will have matured compared with age 17 or 18, when not all would be prepared (or able) to take a gap year. But a post degree gap year could perhaps be more widely considered. Hmmm.

I totally get the despondency re the demise of MFL in this country, and there are no signs of improvement without radical reform at school level, re-join the Erasmus programme would be a great start point.

But this was a thread started by request for information of a prospective student invested in his interests. Most MFL takers know there is extra grind if there is no native advantage at play. Some will not realise what it takes to supplement, for want of a better word, to offset the shortcomings of the system, and will add to the negative stats. Obviously easier for those with deeper pockets, but even the small initiatives that are not all ££ like take summer language classes in Y12, joining debating clubs, language societies, tours (pair them with music or sports), being an au pair in summer hols for x weeks if not taking gap year. Basically putting yourself out there and not beholden to the ‘everyone speaks back in English what’s the point’ brigade. No one is offended when you push back and ask would you mind if I practice…

I can only talk from DD’s personal experience, who has a similar profile to @mimbleandlittlemy‘s but different language mix, it’s impressive to navigate a complex country AND their language, I am in awe and couldn’t do it but all the YP rise to the challenge. Once out there with other international students (taking of study abroad here), they get a multiple hit of cultural exposures and rally, widening friendships beyond class.

I think it’s good to be honest about prospects in general, but it can also be one of the most fulfilling UG study programmes for those inclined and put in the work.

Should add, my own DD as a current MFL student, intends to spend the year abroad studying, with a part time job, having spoken to older students about their experiences, a) so as to spend time with similarly aged people and b) so as to keep up with the non-MFL half of the degree. She's no idea what she wants to do with her career but at least wants any future children to be polylingual, as she will be.

@Ceramiq, I totally agree about Blair and language learning. My son was very lucky to go to a Requires Improvement comp that divided the year into a German and a French stream from Y7, with Spanish from Y8 for those capable and Latin as a twilight class from Y9 for those that wanted to. Spanish teaching so bad my language capable child gave it up after a year. Latin taught so brilliantly he did Latin GCSE in one year in Y10. Only 2 kids did German A level, both went on to do MFL, one at Oxford. So this school was prepared to back languages to the hilt.

Contrast that with boroughs in the north of England now, with schools that don’t offer any languages at all, boroughs that almost all voted for Brexit because, perhaps, they no longer had access to the languages of their European neighbours which removed their chances to look outward.

Blair had access to all the languages he wanted, to take that away from kids was unforgivable.

Op I'm in Scotland but very few schools still teach German, the most seems to be French, Spanish and Mandarin.

I'd try to encourage him to pick something more mainstream given German is already a limited language.