MFL degrees - single vs dual language

[tobyj]

DS is edging slowly towards degree course choice, and has decided on MFL. He was considering joint honours (language and classics or language and history), but has decided to stick with straight MFL. Next decision is whether to a) just take a single language (German), or b) take German plus a semi ab initio (he did French GCSE so could pick that back up) or c) take German plus a fully ab initio (eg Italian or another European language).

Ultimately he just needs to go with what he wants of course, but I wondered if the MN hive mind had any pearls of wisdom or things to consider - or indeed any uni/course recommendations or ones to avoid? First time going through this, and feeling a bit rabbit in the headlights!

Huh? How's that an argument for taking an mfl degree?
Everyone. That is the purpose of the country in question setting proficiency tests!

That's me told.

@TizerorFizz well done to your DD for getting to Oxbridge to study MFL without any outside help. Are you suggesting I should not have helped my DD? To be clear, neither Oxbridge nor private school were on the cards when I started helping her, and I did do because I saw a gap.

TizerorFizz's daughter didn't get an Oxbridge MFL degree.

I know lots of MFL academics, both at Oxbridge and in RG universities. Oxbridge MFL degrees are chock-a-block full of students who have had a lot of help above and beyond what the education system/schools offer. This is hardly surprising given the resources allocated to MFL and the poor standards to which students are held at GCSE. A-level standards aren't actually too bad but it's extremely difficult to do well if students don't have extra help in some shape or form.

A-level standards aren't actually too bad but it's extremely difficult to do well if students don't have extra help in some shape or form

We can relate to this, DD was fortunate to have an outstanding language department who went above and beyond in many ways. She did 3 languages at GCSE excluding Latin and took one to A level, options not open to many across our systems which is very sad. Even in my poor late 70's's comprehensive school they offered french, german and russian. Agree that her language only came to life for her in A level years, she picked it up from Y9.

She has been a tutor for this language now for nearly 3 years, mainly supporting A level students but some GCSE too, across all boards. Her students are a mixture of private and state school, including international (India & Singapore mainly). She believes her profile attracts those who want to be taught by a non-native who has proven they can navigate the system to achieve a high result in their exams to progress to their next stage in life, some of those have aspirations to continue their MFL. I am not the judge if she's any good, her reviews, results and growth through referrals is the better judge.

We live in a particularly heavy European (amongst other nationalities) zone of London. Those who speak to DD in their native language or, the MFL they too learned in their respective education system, choose to because a) they can't believe she is not native/really happy to engage b) they miss speaking it because there are no family members around to speak with c) whilst they may be plurilingual, this particular language will be less spoken within the household. She has also benefitted with internships in this language that she believes, has helped her to secure a decent internship for this summer, which would normally be associated with those streaming from business/computer science type degrees. She has a touch of imposter syndrome but like the PP on here that recruits for professional services, the profile of successful graduates is vast, even for tech related roles. DD's mentor for her role is a Natural Sciences grad from Cambridge, who has commended her for the additional language skill and what part that will play within projects.

This thread feels a little throw back to the days where parents would question why DD was playing multiple instruments when she had no intention of studying music at HE nor could complete with cultures that had their kids learning from aged 2, or that she swam competitively with no chance in hell of meeting olympic standard, so why get her up at 04.30. Couldn't get their head around the 'love of it', such a 'waste' they would chime.

All that help just to go to finishing school.

@IdaGlossop She got a place and didn’t go. Of course you will help DD but it’s fair to say others don’t have any help at all and feel second best. Usually they are. DD was extremely happy where she pitched up and it didn’t stop her having a great career.

Students who don't have any help are the ones who should feel most proud of themselves. I'm glad your DD is having a great career and had the sense to reject Oxbridge if she felt it wasn't the right place for her.

I’ll be honest - it rejected her! One grade dropped at A level. She had a choral scholarship too. I think it’s a useful message to say there’s life after a huge disappointment.

One grade. That must be hard. It rejected me too, after interview. My time at university was fantastic, and certainly proved there is life after huge disappointment.

Well she got a lot further than most in the Oxbridge process Tizer, so they very clearly thought she would be a good fit at Oxford. I would expect they didn't give any licence on results day because she was at an independent - a lot of factors go into the mix when grades are dropped, and that's one of them.

What is the language that seems to have helped secure the internship? DM me if you prefer.

I have sent you a @Signedcopy

@Auchencar You might be right about school. We will never know. Firmly in the past now.

But the majority of people don't use their degree content after university, regardless of degree subject (in fact most don't even use most of their GCSE content). Sure, if you're a vet or a medic or a teacher you do. But, certainly in my experience, most people don't (in my year, a huge number went on to become bankers or management consultants or blue chip grad trainees, regardless of what degree they'd done - only a pretty small number did anything subject-specific). Why is a degree in MFL when you don't become a translator any more of a waste of time and resource than a degree in biology if you don't become a research scientist? Genuine question - do you not believe in the intrinsic value of education in developing skills, interests and understanding of the world, above and beyond subject content? I find that such a depressing view of education, and very typical of the way things have been going in recent years: School's about getting into university. University's about getting into a job. A job's about how much you earn, and getting into the next job. It's all about what comes next, not about the value of what's happening now. Maybe when you retire you might actually get to do things for the intrinsic value of doing them.

Sure. As it should be. My post was merely aimed at snarky comments :)

@tobyj I do think there is a sequence to education which is inevitable. You can do both though. Enjoy the degree and have an eye on the job you might want. My DD had to do a huge amount of planning for her future career. It’s ok if dc don’t but in the current jobs market, some engagement with work is necessary. Gone are the days when a casual attitude got what you wanted. Some get lucky of course but we’ve seen lots very disappointed. Failing to prepare etc etc! However I agree that the breadth of a degree is more than a narrow vocational focus.

We very badly need people to interact with other cultures from a place of deep understanding. We can't afford to educate people in MFL and for them to throw them away.

Translating is not a high level skill beyond some literary translation (it's actually quite easy to translate from languages you don't speak if you speak related languages) and is being taken over by AI. The depressing view of education is that it doesn't matter what you study, what matters is that you do study and that you get a degree, as if that degree had some magical quality about it. It really doesn't: specific skills matter.

I keep meaning to comment on this post but always get sidetracked!

Anyway, I'd say that even if he does two languages, one is likely to end up his "main" one, but I've always found learning further languages easier from a multilingual base, because there are more similarities and connections and patterns.

It's common to specialise in one language in final year.

I would actually choose a 2nd language based on course content. For example, when I was at uni, the French course was mainly literature, whereas the Spanish course had lots of film modules, and the Russian one was mostly history. So I'd choose what interests him from a non-linguistic point of view.

Career-wise, my language has been useful in every job I've ever had, even though none of them required MFL competency. From eavesdropping on suppliers, making business travel easier, being given opportunities to talk to overseas clients, or picking up an additional language to talk to overseas colleagues, it's been a massive bonus. My student loan was paid off after 11 years.

@AnnaBegins Not sure that’s true everywhere. My DDs degree was 50/50 as was her year abroad. The second MFL is not a nice to have add on. It counts and that means dc have had to work equally at 2 MFLs. That says something about them. The top universities also have a very wide range of options. Clearly none guaranteed but every student should look at the core and expect a variety of options to give depth in every MFL. My DD had a wide range. Also some modules get over subscribed so flexibility is always good.

@TizerorFizzyou'd hope so, but it's worth talking to current students as reality may not match the advertised course content. For example, where I was, it was and I am told still the case that whilst technically there was a literature and a linguistics optional module in first year, in practice every student was told to take the literature one. This is at a top uni.

I think what can happen is single MFL students get first dibs. DD had this and then the joint people are too numerous for the reduced spaces available. DD rather liked the small group who did medieval French!

Also lecturers go away to research and write books or go on maternity leave. Options are not fixed, so even after checking it’s not always clear what might be available. I remember DD awaiting confirmation of the final list of options for y4. Core should remain pretty static though.

We also know a maths grad who, at Warwick, didn’t get his chosen modules in y3. Wasn’t switched on enough to apply early. So there’s quite a few reasons why dc don’t always get what they want so being a bit flexible can be advantageous.

Usually the best students get first dibs.

@Ceramiq That is incorrect. Modules are released to everyone. Not just the swots! There are time limits and early bird etc…, Plus in MFL the single MFL students definitely were prioritised. Not that dd really cared as she tended to choose less popular options - I think just once she didn’t get a first choice. In a vibrant department though, decent alternatives are available and DD got the “missing” module in y4.

@Ceramiq

You used to be a prolific poster about 10 years ago from Paris, and if I recall correctly, you said you went to UWE Bristol, not University of Bristol?

I'm an Edinburgh French & Spanish graduate on quite a high pay here, earning a few hundred Ks per annum. My partner with an excellent maths degree is earning slightly under 100k doing a great but stressful job that they love. We know many, many MFL graduates doing really well. I still use both languages for work on a daily basis. Weirdly though, I write reports in English only.

My advice to those pursuing MFL is to be good at analysing graphs at interviews - you need to be quick and accurate. Many interviews contain graphs these days.