To be or not to be a doctor?

[MrsDThaskala]

DD said today that she’s been in thinking about becoming a doctor. Not sure what area, not sure what kind, just said it out of the blue today. I mean she’s doing well in her sciences. But quite honestly, the doctors I know, GP and hospital doctors, and a surgeon always say how stressed they are, how much pressure hospitals are under, how hard medical school is….etc. not necessarily for my DD but what do you think? With all that we know about the NHS right now, what’s your take on becoming a doctor?

I'd absolutely advise against. Tough tough career, especially now in a culture where people will look to shame and blame doctors- who are only human, doing a bloody good job. There's so many more rewarding careers for straight A level students.

Ps. I have 2 brothers who are doctors and working in the NHS has nearly killed them. Have both had significant time off

You’d think they’d be employed by the NHS so would get continuous service. But nope, they are employed by individual trusts, so each time they HAVE to move their employment status resets to zero. Maternity pay is a dream for most resident doctors as getting 2 years at one hospital is unheard of.
It would be such a simple fix. Run through training at one trust for every speciality, no need to rotate 100s of miles every 6 months.
Are you sure about that @mumneedswine ? Admittedly it is a long time since I was in training but whilst I was paid by the Trust I was working for at any point, my contract was with the Deanery whilst on rotation. Continuous NHS service absolutely did count for things like sick and maternity pay. We've definitely had rotational staff get maternity leave in our Trust in recent years. I'm retired now and haven't really taken much notice of medical politics for a while but I'd be shocked if the BMA hadn't put up very vocal resistance to such long standing and basic employment rights being removed.
In fact the BMA website currently states
If you have 12 months continuous service with one or more NHS employers at the beginning of the 11th week before the expected week of childbirth, and you have notified your intention to return to work with the NHS, you are entitled to:

• 8 weeks' full pay, less any Statutory Maternity Pay (SMP) or Maternity Allowance (MA)
• 18 weeks' half pay plus any SMP or MA (providing the total does not exceed full pay)
• 13 weeks' SMP or MA
• 13 weeks’ unpaid leave.

And the same page specifically mentions that resident doctors are eligible for the NHS maternity scheme. There's even some protection for those who have had approved time out of their programme.
If someone is trying to prevent your DC or any of their friends accessing those entitlements I suggest they contact the BMA ASAP.

And I am afraid that rotation is a necessary evil, always has been, probably always will be. There are very few Trusts in the country that could provide the training in every subspecialty that most specialties require, and those that could are all tertiary centres in major cities. That isn't where most consultants end up spending the majority of their working lives. If everyone did all their training in one of a few large Trusts, not only would there not be enough work for them all to gain adequate experience, service delivery in general hospitals would be hit even harder than it already is and you'd have lots of doctors having to apply for DGH posts with absolutely no experience of working in one.
I don't doubt that rotations could be better organised - we used to think there was someone planning our allocations who looked at our home addresses and deliberately sent us to hospitals that were as far away and on the most difficult routes as possible, and I don't suppose it has improved - but getting experience of working in different places, as well as in different subspecialties is really important, both for the service and the individual doctor. My views on what I wanted to do and the kind of place I wanted to work changed radically from the beginning of my rotation to the end - you have to see it to be it. Yes, the travel etc was a pain in the backside, especially once I had a child, but I wouldn't have swapped it for years in the same hospital as I would not have been as well trained for my eventual job.

Every time I rotated - finished at one trust one day and started at a new trust the very next day - my p45 would take a while to come through from trust #1 so I was put on a temporary tax code at trust #2, charged too much tax, difficult to claim back (as anyone who has tried to will testify).
Some residents struggle to have mortgages approved due to the nature of their short contracts.

I absolutely love my career too. It’s still giving me new opportunities nearly 30 years on and I don’t find it particularly stressful most of the time. I also enjoy shift work as I like the downtime during the working week and I get that’s not for everyone.

I wouldn’t push my kids into it, I think you really really need to want to do it, however if they were dead set I wouldn’t put them off either.
There are plenty of things you can do with a medical degree if the going gets tough

@AgeingDoc DDs friend has been told she doesn’t qualify for NHS maternity pay as she’s only been at trust for 18 months. She’s been in the NHS for 5 years. But I’ll tell her to check just in case her trust is wrong - I believe NHS HR gets things wrong!

No, it's a disaster.
My DP is a hospital trust Doctor and you are generally treated like shit unless you are lucky enough/dedicated enough/study hard enough in your non existent downtime to get onto the consultant training pathway

I had reservations, but my dc didn’t care much about my opinion on the subject. He set out to do it when he was 15, and achieved it. He loves the work but can sometimes get fed up with the politics. It’s true that NHS management are too pressed to care much about them and their welfare, and national management see them as group to be ‘cracked’. But at the end of the day, they make their own decisions which career they choose, and medicine still offers some benefits if you like people, difficult problems and science.

I think someone is talking rubbish there. When I was working the requirement was 12 months of continuous service and whilst it's nearly 20 years since I was pregnant myself I have supported pregnant staff as a clinical manager far more recently and it was still the case. A quick Google brings up multiple sources that say the same thing.
I don't think individual Trusts can set their own rules on that sort of thing. Has she had a written copy of the Trust maternity policy? If not, that would be my first suggestion - she needs to get one and read it carefully as if she's been misinformed on this basic point there may be other things that haven't been done correctly.
Then, assuming she's a member, she needs to talk to the BMA if her Trust is not fulfilling its obligations to her.

@AgeingDoc she is the first one of their friends to get pregnant and the Trust HR have told her, in writing, that she needs 2 years continuous service to qualify. As her previous employment was in other trusts, and P45s have been issued each time, she doesn’t qualify. But I’ve told DD to get her to query it and check with BMA. Let’s hope it’s good news did her. Pregnancy was bit of a surprise so not financially where she wanted to be, but happy to have a baby which is good.

Depends on tbe uni. Mine we were on placement from 1st year onwards. Most "older" are y3 onwards. No pay

I finish training as a consultant in Nov, age 35. I'd think v v v hard about it. I'm not sure if I'd do it again. My parents do their utmost to convince their younger friends children away from it

Anaesthetists (i am one) are most definitely doctors! 5y at uni, 2y generic foundation training, minimum 7y specialist training, known to have the hardest of all post grad exams (along with radiology)

If I didn't have a teeth phobia I'd have been a dentist my mates have much better life balance better pay no nights etc

I actually ended up with £1200 less to live off in final year as my nhs bursary was granted at £0, but student loans had a computer says no reply and kept telling me I had a bursary so cut my living cost loan to £2100 for the year. That was fun!

If people don't like medicine pick another job. Loads of lawyers 5 years beyond age 18 start as paralegals on minimum wage for a few years and never earn as much as doctors. It is a free market. If you don't like medicine do something else, same with teaching and same with law and all the other careers. On maternity rights I have 4 wonderful grandchildren (the bonus of having 3 children by age 26 whilst working full time and taking 2 weeks (weeks not months) off to have my first children....... The youngest has a mother who returned to work after the 2nd (and the 1st). this time round the entitlement in law and in the place of employment was 6 weeks at 90% pay, something I never got in the 80s as not employed long enough, nor in the 90s as I was self employed so was back taking calls the day after the twins were born. In other words plenty of legal careers might give you 90% pay for six weeks only and the NHS can look like a much better deal for some. However I would not pick a career base don maternity leave pay but instead long term pay and satisfaction. I have not noticed with my children's cousin any great shortage of potential medical students so they are not yet being put off by the negatives mentioned on the thread.

the same goes for my twins' old school which is mostly an Asian school (private) in London . Loads of those boys would love to do medicine. London of course has more scope for private patients once you are bit more experienced too and extremely high pay in some areas liks cosmetic work and those clinics that see a lot of patients from abroad so like law has the higher pay over all.

Plenty of other jobs restrict you by contract from taking a second job of any kind even at weekends and require you to work full time whether you like it or not. Medicine is not one of those so in that sense the doctors are lucky. The harsh cold reality of being employed by the private sectors (or being self employed as GPs and I am) is a very different kettle of fish from being employed by the state. Doctors can often do both sectors.

I'll make this my last mat pay related comment to avoid derailing the thread any further @mumneedswine but yes, I think she should seek union support asap. If the Deanery doesn't use a lead employer for their rotations it can affect entitlement to Statutory Maternity Pay but she should definitely be eligible for Occupational Maternity Pay and probably Maternity Allowance if she doesn't get SMP. But if she has been at the same Trust for over 26 weeks by the 15th week of pregnancy she should get SMP anyway. I can't find any legislation that requires 2 years continuous employment with the same Trust.
I've got quite a bit of experience of HR departments misinforming staff about their rights, maybe accidentally, maybe not, so I would strongly encourage your DD's friend to get some independent advice.
This link may be helpful, but definitely encourage her to contact the BMA.
https://www.nhsemployers.org/publications/general-maternity-guidance-rotational-doctors-and-dentists-training

I would encourage her to do it.
It is tough, but a good secure job.
And the feeling of helping others.

UK medicine is definitely NOT a free market for doctors who want to actually practise medicine!

The NHS is the only option for hospital doctors until consultant level unfortunately.

Obviously straight A students can choose another career but the salient point is that they shouldn’t have to.

Their skill, training and expertise not to mention tough working conditions should be remunerated accordingly.

Not every high flier wants to be owned by a magic circle firm.

Ah but some people believe lawyers are superior to everyone. Especially something called the magic circle - I always thought that was for magicians ?

@MushMonster secure ? You do know that many many F2s will be unemployed this August ? And qualified GPs. And consultants. There are not enough jobs.

Isn't that secure when tons of us are facing unemployment! My trust put in a business case for a consultant post 2y ago, still not approved as local health board won't agree the funding now been told to cut 40% of spending. Tons of consultants retiring, not allowed to replace them so huge staff deficit

@Destiny123One poster says everyone is going abroad. Take redundancy and go. More money no doubt.

My husband is a hospital consultant and tells me everyday how much he regrets doing medicine . The long hours and being put into a position that tiredness becomes unsafe . Managers constantly changing rules and ways clinics are run. I actually feel sorry that he's so unhappy in a profession he took so long to train in.

@Welshwhales the minimum pay appears to be £105,000 for consultants. What does he expect to do for that? He probably earns more. In the uk most people would work long hours for that. The self employed would do, and they don’t get 28% pension contribution either. It’s amazing to ordinary people how much doctors complain. They are not unique in working long hours or finding their work changes at the behest of others.

On the other hand, they are telling us we do not have enough nurses and doctors... And there are lots of vacancies in the NHS...
I really do not know what to believe any more....

Theres tons of drs (nurses I'm not so sure of) that can't get jobs because trusts are being told have to save 40%, training numbers are lower than those graduating and competing with those outside the UK for the jobs. Gp the issue is that the government are giving practices physician associates/paramedics etc for free so financially they're prioritised over actual gps as the practice funding is low their hands are tied. I have so many gp mates facing unemployment in a few months when finish training. I'm going to have to relocate and sell my house at this rate to not be unemployed in nov

About 50% of my graduation cohort are in oz now. My family is too elderly and frail for me to move that fat away else I would too. You don't get redundancy when your training contract ends as its just a 5y fixed term job that ends