To be or not to be a doctor?

[MrsDThaskala]

DD said today that she’s been in thinking about becoming a doctor. Not sure what area, not sure what kind, just said it out of the blue today. I mean she’s doing well in her sciences. But quite honestly, the doctors I know, GP and hospital doctors, and a surgeon always say how stressed they are, how much pressure hospitals are under, how hard medical school is….etc. not necessarily for my DD but what do you think? With all that we know about the NHS right now, what’s your take on becoming a doctor?

It's a long hard slog, which tends to mean you have to really want to do it to get through it. The working conditions in the UK are pretty crap, but it is an internationally recognised qualification. It has a lot of stresses, but there are occasions you get immense job satisfaction.

I agree with @nocoolnamesleft
But ultimately, no.

I think it is a lot of stress. People tend to respect doctors though.
I read an article the other day that junior doctors were being sent to random placements all over the country with as little as 3 weeks notice.

Is the degree 5 years in university lecture type things or is the 4th 5th year working in hospitals? Is there any pay in those years?

I think it's a very tough route that you should only do if you really want to do it.

One of the med school open days that I went to with dd pointed out that there are very many easier ways to make money, get high status roles etc. Talked about how hard it was and basically said these are all the reasons why you shouldn't do medicine. But if you still want to apply...

DD did apply and is now a med student. No regrets so far but it is early days yet. I would have preferred her to take an easier route, honestly, but she was so very certain that it was what she wanted to do, and ultimately, they have to follow their own paths.

No pay in years 4 and 5. And much less student finance in year 5 with a tiny bit of extra funding from the NHS.

I will essentially be paying for the privilege of dd working in the NHS for free.

Not.
I have 2 doctor children now in specialty training.
Every step is a nightmare in the UK, generally made even worse by the utter incompetence of HEE scoring applications incorrectly and offering jobs which are later withdrawn.
Encourage your bright children to do something else, or go somewhere else to practise medicine.

Do your dc regret their career choices, @Drivingmissmaisie?

I would say they regret the fact their only option in their home country is the failed dysfunctional NHS. They would choose differently if they had their time again and say almost all their friends feel the same.
One of their friends was recently denied leave for their own wedding! It’s a complete car crash.
One of my DC worked in Australia where the pay is double and they were more able to spend time with patients, better support system from seniors and patient continuity so much better job satisfaction.
It is the reality of being a doctor in the UK they did not anticipate, and the reason neither would make the same decision if they had known at 17 years old what they know now.

Thank you for responding.

I feel that my dd went into medical school with her eyes fairly wide open about the realities of the NHS as it currently stands, but then again, we don't really know yet what we don't know.

Could I ask at what point the scale of the problems really started to dawn on them?

I’m a registrar in a medical specialty hospital based, initial years very tough. Exams and working very expensive, high stakes and stressful. Underpaid for what we do. Student debt is obscene.

But compared to husband and friends I feel very priveliged to have a “meaningful” job. It’s immensely stressful and hard doing shifts and long hours but I find my job fascinating and lots of my colleagues are truly brilliant to work with. I love the camaraderie. I’m finally doing a specialty I love. It might be Stockholm syndrome but I don’t think I could do another job.

No kids yet so don’t know how I’ll balance that and the job can take a big emotional toll. But I’d still do it again.

None of my doctor friends have kids yet and we’re early/mid thirties. It’s a sacrifice and it’s a vocation not just a job.

This government are trying to improve things for doctors. It's undoubtedly tough but if it's something she wants to do great.

That's reassuring to hear, @Medstudent12. My dd is certainly prepared for it to be extremely tough, but she genuinely feels that there is nothing else that she wants to do. I hope she will still feel like that in a few years.

Absolutely not. Teens should use their 3 A's at A level to do something better than medicine.

I also read that there aren't enough junior doctor placements for UK trained medical students as the placements are available to doctors from other countries as well. These doctors often have many years experience so the competition to get a place is really tough.

If she is dead set on it you can’t stop her, but honestly as a GP myself I would make sure she has explored all possible alternatives and that she goes into it with her eyes very wide open. My parents are doctors and tried to discourage me, with all my heart I wish I had listened, there is NO WAY I would make the same choice if I had my time over again. Thankfully my own son has never been interested and I have cultivated his disinterest carefully! And yes, the poster above probably does have Stockholm syndrome essentially, as you get older you tend to have more insight into that aspect of things and the resentment builds up over time about all you have sacrificed over the years - that time you were denied leave for your own wedding (seriously not unusual and yes it happened to me), that time you called in sick as you had norovirus and were puking your guts up and were basically accused of faking it, that time you had to move house a billion times because the NHS decided to move you to a different area, that time you decided kids weren’t that important anyway, that time you missed your anniversary dinner with your husband because nobody turned up to take the cardiac arrest bleep at the end of your shift, that time you were too busy and stressed with work to realise your best friend needed you, that time you were too exhausted from trying to get enough done to be able to take a week off that you couldn’t enjoy your holiday anyway, that time you cancelled a weekend with your brother because of work before he unexpectedly died etc etc. Constant sacrificing of all the little things that make up a life is required, and then the little things become the big things over time. Doctors have a super high rate of divorce, alcoholism and suicide.

Doing medicine as a degree is great, it’s super interesting etc. And being a doctor in itself is in many ways great, it’s having to do it within the constraints of the NHS that’s the issue, and obviously that’s kind of a monopoly in the U.K. It’s so time pressured with a ridiculously macho working culture still, a serious problem with bullying, and in general it’s a working culture that encourages you to put the needs of other people before your own 100 percent of the time. It’s also no longer particularly well paid considering the working hours, lack of autonomy over those to a degree, qualifications needed and risk of being sued or worse ending up in jail because you made a mistake.

If she is intending to find a niche that will be easy to convert to a private career or she is planning to take her degree and move to another country with it I’d be reluctantly fine with it. I have to say in contrast to a pp, not to knock the current government (I voted for them) I’m not seeing any signs of them trying to improve things for doctors at all. I think it’s going to get a lot worse honestly before it gets better.

It breaks my heart to have to say this! I genuinely have a vocation for medicine, am a real people person, empathetic and caring and absolutely love medicine as a subject academically, and I am still slogging away in the NHS as I am generally ideologically opposed to private healthcare (plus the jobs are limited currently). However having been through domestic abuse I can genuinely compare working for the NHS as akin to being in the thrall of an abusive relationship. You don’t want that for your daughter if it can be avoided, so I’d honestly work as hard to avoid this outcome as you would if you saw her planning to marry and have kids with someone who is clearly abusive.I know these are strong words but it’s genuinely how I feel!

Bear in mind that once you start down the path of medicine although it’s technically possible of course to pivot at any stage, it gets harder and harder in so many ways to do that the more you go down that road, and in practice I know a LOT of doctors who are super unhappy about their work and feeling essentially “trapped”. However if she’s dead set I would be there reminding her that doing medicine as a degree doesn’t mean she HAS to become a doctor and being there to help her explore the alternatives at every step of the way, without being unsupportive of her choice.

UK FY2 doctors get no priority over overseas applicants, after 5/6 years med school and the 2 years foundation programme ie 8 years UK training.
My children were very lucky and got what they wanted first time but many don’t. Most specialties have competition ratios of 6-8 applicants per place. And remember these applicants are all junior doctors who have already undertaken a minimum of 7 years of med school and training.

The ones who don’t often go to Aus/NZ for F3 and plan to reapply but many never return having sampled the far better job satisfaction and pay.

This government is just dumbing down the standard of healthcare by pushing more of what would normally be done by doctors on to cheaper physician associates who take 2 years to qualify instead of 5 or 6.

I would say the scales started to fall from their eyes in their final years of med school when they worked with disillusioned F1/2 doctors.

The end of FY2 and recruitment process to start specialty training jobs was another phase of major disillusionment with the realities of being a doctor in the NHS.

My DC’s experience in Australia was so different. They were encouraged to stay, and for specialty training there they were simply recommended by the consultant they had been working with.

Compare it with the UK sh*tshow which happens in one form or another every year.
So many talented junior doctors left jobless and pushed overseas whilst we import doctors unfamiliar with the UK and NHS from countries where they are desperately needed for there own citizens (just as Aus/NZ don’t us with their constant recruitment advertising innBMH etc)

www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1jlrysr/update_re_radiology_offer_error/?rdt=41527

*their own citizens

None of my children has followed I my footsteps and I can't say I'm sorry. If a young person was really set on a career in medicine I'd make sure they were aware of tge realities and wish them good luck, but I would never try to persuade someone who was uncertain. There are positives of course, but were I starting again now I'm not sure I'd be applying for medicine. I graduated the 80s and recently retired and I can honestly say that despite the horrific pre EWTD hours etc I was happier and felt more valued in my first days as a house officer than in my last days as a consultant. I hope things improve for the current generation but I don't feel optimistic.
One thing I would stress for anyone contemplating a medical career is that medical school is the easy bit. It only gets harder therein after and there isn't some magic moment when you get to be a consultant or a GP partner where all your hard work I suddenly "worth it" because you have arrived in nirvana. The stresses are different at different stages but I didn't find it ever really got easier - not til I retired anyway!

I think foundation years are tough. And at times I question why I put myself through this career but the good enough bits keep me coming back for more! I hope she enjoys it, it can be a fab career.

Being a GP is savage though. OP hospital specialties are better as although training is longer and tougher GPs have a worse workload and less pay than a medical consultant in a hospital. I’m surprised GPs have not gone on strike/are not more angry. Respect to all GPs as I could not do it and lots I know are very burnt out. GPs are expected to deal with social issues and complex patients with a mere 10 minutes per appt. And the public are not grateful enough. I’ve had some fab GPs when I’ve been a patient.

GP trainees have a nicer time than medical trainees and qualify quicker but as a registrar I have an easier time at work than my GP friends.

I graduated under a decade ago and would agree with this. My more senior colleagues worked longer hours but tell me the intensity was different. They felt valued in a team in a firm structure. They didn’t have student debt (which means as a consultant I’ll pay thousands and thousands per year as I’m a post 2012 loan) in real terms were paid much more, cheaper housing costs at the time and many got free hospital accommodation. We practice defensively due to fear of being sued/struck off now and the nhs is truly on brink of collapse so there is no respite in busy specialties. I’ve never met a senior consultant that says they’d rather be a new doctor nowadays, they all tell me the team element was so much better in late 20th century.

OP it’s important that your child does not compare the lifestyle of a 60 year old consultant to the one they expect to have. It is utterly incomparable unless they progress early and are one of a small number with a lucrative private practice in certain specialties. It’s also harder than ever to get into specialty training - I’m one of the lucky ones and have got jobs on first year applying but I’m not talented just fortunate. If I’d graduated even 3 years later I’d have been screwed. People are staying at lower pay grades for longer nowadays.

I had parental help with my wedding and house deposit. They bought me a car at uni. So I could afford my post grad exams but I appreciate I am very lucky. New med students will have an even worse financial outlook than me as housing has now become more expensive and they will pay back student loans for longer and it’s harder to get into specialty training so more likely to spend more years lower end of the pay scale.

The fact that there is no guarantee of a job at the end and you could be sent anywhere with two weeks notice would put me right off

working for the nhs is deeply unattractive. I know some docs having a great time in Australia but I would never want my DCs to have to move that far away for work!

i’m a recruiter in the pharmaceutical field and I’d recommend looking into the grad schemes at the major pharma players as an alternative. People have genuinely interesting careers (in r&d, manufacturing, commercial or corporate functions), generally have good W-L balance and are very well paid.

I'm a primary school teacher in Ireland. Three of my friends are Gps. After many incredibly stressful years in training (at least a decade) compared to my 3 years, they now earn, officially working 2.5 days a week but actually 3.5 days because of follow-up paper work etc., 30k more than me. Their hours equate to mine weekly but they only get 6 weeks holiday pay.
So when all is said and done, I get 3 months extra off in the summer. Hour by hour, I'm paid more. It is ridiculous really.

Well said. There’s always a pile on with these threads saying medicine is not a good choice. Thank goodness bright keen youngsters (and mature students) do choose it.

One of my DC is in specialist training. They have a passion for it and nothing else would tick that box for them. Yes, it's hard.