Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To be or not to be a doctor?

325 replies

MrsDThaskala · 07/04/2025 18:36

DD said today that she’s been in thinking about becoming a doctor. Not sure what area, not sure what kind, just said it out of the blue today. I mean she’s doing well in her sciences. But quite honestly, the doctors I know, GP and hospital doctors, and a surgeon always say how stressed they are, how much pressure hospitals are under, how hard medical school is….etc. not necessarily for my DD but what do you think? With all that we know about the NHS right now, what’s your take on becoming a doctor?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
Auchencar · 13/07/2025 22:39

Ha! A deletion for.... Well that's quite funny.

Could you please stop accusing me of being a 'NHS manager'. It's so weird. That has issued from somewhere inside your head because I would never have pursued a career as an 'NHS manager' and nowhere on any thread have I said or even implied that I am one. It's sufficient for the purposes of MN that I'm well informed and don't need or have any wish to make bold claims for myself, as some others do.

Auchencar · 13/07/2025 22:43

And can I just say that yes absolutely 100% a school would book the travel to this sort of conference. That's completely standard and not in the least controversial. I'm stunned that you don't know that mumsneedwine, given the number of such events you seem to attend. I suggest you talk to the guys in accounts/ the Business Manager at least as far as any future events go.

Needmoresleep · 14/07/2025 07:25

It's sufficient for the purposes of MN that I'm well informed

I don't think you are an NHS manager but from your statement and earlier posts assume you have some sort of NHS adjacent policy role. Not least because of your staunch defence of the current position. Context is important, and I would genuinely welcome some hint of where you are coming from.

It matters. A poster upthread whose DC is very keen on being a doctor suggested she was worried about him getting eight years down the line to find he had no job. The position DD and her friends are in, and essentially what this thread is about.

More frustrating in my case because I have friends overseas (I speak an Asian language and have maintained good links) whose DC have been able to access UK training, very much with the aim of returning home to work in the well paid private sector. Over the years I we have shared the various bumps in the parenting road, enough that I know DD and her friends are just as academic, indeed probably a lot more. (UK medical school had been the aim, luckily local private medical schools had lower entry standards. I also wonder about the cultural transition given the DC I know were brought up in relatively sheltered environments with servants and drivers etc.)

If anything I am more angry on behalf of DD's close friend, the one she is likely to go to Australia with. (They both plan to give temping with NHS Bank a go, and then Australia in the New Year as a fall back.) From a deprived part of the City, first in her family to go to University, and first in her school to get into medical school. A very impressive young woman, and someone who could be a role model. She did not get a training place this time round, in part presumably because of the greater demands put on them as opposed to those on the newer English contract, and as a result of the current immigration approach, massive competition which means that the entry level jobs that would allow her to have another go, are effectively out of reach.

Your posting is useful because it does allow people to understand NHS thinking, and to spot what appears to be a lack of empathy. Young people have worked hard for eight years only to find that the system does not value them or their skills. Those close to health policy should be worried about losing this cohort, but they are not.

I am deeply upset about DD's career seemingly ending before it starts and about the prospect of her having to go to the other side of the world to find work. The NHS attitude and your posts often have me close to tears, as I start googling visa opportunities for us should DD have to stay long term. . But useful all the same. I had originally thought that DD was being lazy in not finding a job, but now I know that many DC from earlier medic mum threads have struggled, and that DD is right when she claims that virtually no one in her year has training, and that the Fellow posts in the field she would like to enter have been allocated, on merit, to very capable doctors from the year before her. I am not surprised when a prospective tenant tells me that he applied for dozens of jobs, often taking hours after coming off night shift, before landing a 12 month contract, and that his mum was also very angry. Neighbours tell me about young people stuck in Australia as they cannot get a job back here. Or about the initial professional and cultural difficulties faced by staff new to the UK. An MP I frequently come across, tells me that it is an issue that is being raised in her surgery. She initially thought her constituent was exaggerating till I confirmed that sadly it was all too likely.

We have the entry level jobs that would allow our newly qualified doctors to stay in the country and gain experience. Some could then progress on to training and climb the professional ladder. Others might stay in "house" jobs. To me it seems crazy that we choose instead to recruit from Africa and Asia. Your posting helps us all understand why the NHS takes this approach.

Auchencar · 14/07/2025 09:00

My 'statement' Needmoresleep? You've got me there. Paraphrasing won't do I'm afraid; I'd need to see the post in which a 'statement' was made.

Can I just say, there are far sounder ways for people to inform themselves of 'NHS thinking' than to read threads on MN. Especially threads such as these where some posters have been woefully immature. Another poster left, feeling that she and I were both being accused, inter alia, of being BAPIO fifth columnists. There's some volatility in your own thinking for sure.

One very compelling reason why your DD has not got a training post is that she never applied for one. In that context, perhaps it might be cool to encourage her to go to Australia to have a complete change of scene, rather than lamenting her fate, getting tearful and investigating visas to follow her (tears are not good, obviously, but very extreme: Australia has been a young person's destination for ever). It could be of value, operating in a different healthcare system for a while. Those I know who've gone there have enjoyed a year away and come back refreshed. Your DD may well want to go and since she never made an application in the round just gone, are you quite sure this wasn't her intended plan from the outset? It would be entirely legit.

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 09:18

It’s quite sad now

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 09:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Needmoresleep · 14/07/2025 09:40

I am not out to get you. I am out to understand what is going on. In the same way that OP is asking a very reasonable question. Having experts on this thread is useful.

Of course DD did not get a training position. She did not apply. She thought she would work through her six rotations and then take an F3, an additional year, where she would both gain experience and have time to prepare her application. Just as well as she has changed her mind about which speciality she is interested in. And absolutely what many previous cohorts of doctors have done before her.

The jobs she would have tried for, still exist. However with the changes in immigration law competition for those jobs has gone through the roof. Including a backlog of unsuccessful training applicants from the year before.

You seem quick to allocate blame. DDs close friend did apply for training. Like many in their cohort she did not get it, so is in the same position. Given your "well-informed-ness" what is your solution for those who need another go.

Consultants they have been working for and with don't want to see them go. Bright young things from Oxford/London or Asia are not falling over themselves to apply for training positions outside England. DD and her peers are not eligible to fill those positions, even on a temporary basis. So simultaneously a doctor shortage and a doctor surplus.

I appreciate that your style of communication may be normal in your profession, but at times if feels like personal attack. You are relatively new to mumsnet, so I struggle to understand why you seem to dislike me so much. I don't think it is unusual for people to find attacks from strangers on the Internet upsetting.

And yes DD may love Australia, but as referred to in my previous, there is a large and growing number of young doctors who would like to return but can't find jobs. And unlike the UK Australia operates a Resident Market Labour Test with priority to Australian residents, for jobs and training.

More to the point she loves where she is living now.

Auchencar · 14/07/2025 10:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Auchencar · 14/07/2025 11:03

Needmoresleep my post said that your DD didn't get a training post because she didn't apply. That is the opposite of being 'quick to blame' It says she didn't fail. My point about your reaction to Australia is as legit as is your DD going. You could do with being a little more positive. Arguably it's unfair on your DD to be so negative.

If my posts are sharp Needmoresleep, then look back at those posts of yours which are directed to me and ask if they are appropriate.

I make no apologies for being well informed. It comes with the territory.

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 11:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 11:06

Oh you made it personal again. So you know where I live ? Stalker behaviour is illegal you know.

Auchencar · 14/07/2025 11:07

mumsneedwine the post was exactly as I said. I'm happy for it to be re-posted. It was about travel to Glasgow that's all but did mention your broad geographical location (which I'm only aware of due to your previous posts).

This is term time. Shouldn't you be working now?

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 11:10

Well informed 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂. Sorry that is v funny when so many of your posts are just rude, patronising and wrong. I have no idea what job you actually do but it must be one where rudeness is normal.

The facts are very easy to read. WRs is meeting BMS today and many things are on the table, including jobs I’m sure. 52% of F2s currently have a job in 4 weeks time.

Auchencar · 14/07/2025 11:11

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 11:06

Oh you made it personal again. So you know where I live ? Stalker behaviour is illegal you know.

I think I need to clarify. Many times over you've said that your DD didn't want to apply to London for F1 and F2 since she grew up there. Ditto you've referred to the pupils at your school living in London and preferring Oxford over London for F1 and F2 on that account. I therefore, not unreasonably, assumed that you lived in London or in the suburbs.

If you post about your general location, please don't be surprised if others refer to it in a subsequent post. That is completely ok.

Keep it civil please.

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 11:12

@Auchencar 😂😂😂 I am, I’m sitting in a field. DofE minibus driver, why I wasn’t on MN last night as was supervising the camping. You not working ?

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 11:14

Assume all you like. But stalking is illegal. No need to make things personal - 5 posts about my travel plans was a bit weird

Auchencar · 14/07/2025 11:23

mumsneedwine do stop this nonsense.

The reference to travel plans was exclusively because you hijacked a comment I made and made it about widening participation, and that led onto the Glasgow conference, which I'd told you about. Travel that week was ghastly. You followed up my initial post about it so I replied. All very normal.

Totally out of order to claim stalking when I merely referenced what you've referenced multiple times yourself. Now that is weird.

Now enjoy your field.

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 11:25

Again, rude. Always rude. And you are still going on about my travel plans 😂.

PipMumsnet · 14/07/2025 12:56

Hello, we are getting a number of reports about this thread so we'd like to remind you that Mumsnet is here to make parents' lives easier.

While we encourage healthy and robust discussion, we hope that everyone can respect each other in their choices and express their views without resorting to personal attacks.

We have removed some PAs already and we would like this to stop now. After all, parenting is hard enough without facing judgement and criticism for those choices.

Peace and love everyone.
MNHQ

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 13:01

Thank you

Cyanometer · 14/07/2025 13:15

What about working as an HCPC-registered scientist within the NHS?

There are lots of different specialities, and you get to contribute to patient care directly every day.

Auchencar · 14/07/2025 18:37

Sharing the irony mumsneedwine😂(light hearted).

Auchencar · 14/07/2025 18:40

sendsummer · 12/07/2025 07:05

That doesn't mean that you intentionally misrepresented;
A scientist including a science teacher should always guard against confirmation bias though.

Due to the resurgence of this thread I have looked at the 2024 data which are now available https://medical.hee.nhs.uk/medical-training-recruitment/medical-specialty-training/equality-and-diversity/equality-and-diversity-2024-recruitment-data

For entry level training posts (CT1/ST1), UK graduate applications 20480, non EU IMG 45251 However again these headline figures are misleading.
Appointable applications UK 11156 (54% of all UK applications),
non EU IMG 17119 (38%)

Of appointable applications from UK graduates, 85% offers. That’s very reassuring for UK graduates who apply having reached the requisite standards.

Only 27% of appointable non EU IMG applications had offers.

Critically again UK applicants did not accept about a third of their offers (probably because of multiple applications or wanting to go abroad or retry for preferred speciality) - mainly for GP, psychiatry, acute care and internal medicine. It is these specialities which have the highest numbers of non EU IMGs accepted appointments. So as for previous years, the non EU IMGs appear to be filling posts which UK graduates don’t seem to want.

I hope the original poster doesn't mind me quoting their post for a second time, but these are the numbers to hang onto, for perspective.

Some other posts/ posters are giving a different and infinitely more gloomy/ dramatic perspective, which isn't in the least helpful for those concerned about their/ DCs' future prospects in the NHS (even without any tweaks made by the Secretary of State).

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 20:48

Again, just can’t be nice. Have to make a dig (light hearted or not).

Auchencar · 14/07/2025 21:36

Well, not going to miss such an obvious opportunity mumsneedwine - have a sense of humour!

New posts on this thread. Refresh page