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Higher education

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To be or not to be a doctor?

325 replies

MrsDThaskala · 07/04/2025 18:36

DD said today that she’s been in thinking about becoming a doctor. Not sure what area, not sure what kind, just said it out of the blue today. I mean she’s doing well in her sciences. But quite honestly, the doctors I know, GP and hospital doctors, and a surgeon always say how stressed they are, how much pressure hospitals are under, how hard medical school is….etc. not necessarily for my DD but what do you think? With all that we know about the NHS right now, what’s your take on becoming a doctor?

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Auchencar · 05/06/2025 20:43

mumsneedwine no doctor should be unemployed. That's up to them. Maybe have a second go if you don't get training offered on the first attempt and if it doesn't work out on the second attempt then probably time to consider transferring your skills elsewhere.

It's true that a large number of doctors won't get further on their training pathway at the various stages you mention, but many probably shouldn't progress further anyway. Did you read the mention of 'Forever SHO' on either this thread or the AIBU one? There's a clear policy here.

Auchencar · 05/06/2025 20:44

mumsneedwine · 05/06/2025 20:43

And Auch seems to be running the Xenia fan club 😂

It's called balance mumsneedwine. Xenia does not strike me as someone who needs acolytes.

Auchencar · 05/06/2025 20:46

Quite like 'Auch' though. It's cute. Cheers :)

Hollibobcat · 05/06/2025 21:07

Auchencar · 05/06/2025 19:42

Ok, l'il bit of empathy lacking there too.

Well it seems you were unable to work that out so I had to state the obvious.Not sure you are one to preach on sensitivities.

Auchencar · 05/06/2025 21:22

mumsneedwine I think I'm probably ok with the understanding thanks. The moaning less so.

Those graduating from UK medical school should have plenty of transferable skills - those who don't get training need to use them. The entitlement (job for life) seems to be compounded by unrealistic parental expectations. Those with a medical degree should be no more cushioned than any other graduates. A lot of the blame for this should be laid at the door of parents who treat their DC as super special because they got into medical school. I treat all my DC absolutely equally and have never lionised the medics over the others.

Auchencar · 05/06/2025 21:25

Skim reading your articles, I can't identify what's radical about them Confused

mumsneedwine · 05/06/2025 21:31

You really can’t argue with stupid. Mark Twain was right. Don’t believe me ? Then read what the the Royal College of Physicians say. I mean, you’d expect them to know better than a bunch of ‘mummies’ on MN.

https://www.rcp.ac.uk/news-and-media/news-and-opinion/an-uncertain-future-resident-doctors-speak-out-about-growing-competition-for-nhs-training-jobs

mumsneedwine · 05/06/2025 21:32

Sarcasm just bypasses some people 😂

mumsneedwine · 05/06/2025 21:37

For anyone who cares about doctors having jobs. To cut the waiting lists. Why train doctors if we don’t employ them ?

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Auchencar · 05/06/2025 21:41

mumsneedwine · 05/06/2025 21:31

You really can’t argue with stupid. Mark Twain was right. Don’t believe me ? Then read what the the Royal College of Physicians say. I mean, you’d expect them to know better than a bunch of ‘mummies’ on MN.

https://www.rcp.ac.uk/news-and-media/news-and-opinion/an-uncertain-future-resident-doctors-speak-out-about-growing-competition-for-nhs-training-jobs

I don't think I've ever made any attempt to argue with you mumsneedwine.

Auchencar · 05/06/2025 21:46

It's not mere mummies like you and I on here though mumsneedwine; it seems to be consultants too, with experience, and academics who are also consultants.

What's evident in our respective posts is that I in my mummy only capacity seem to identify far more with the reasoned arguments of the professionals than with all the mummies such as you who seem to be incensed about a job market which selects for progression on merit.

Xenia · 06/06/2025 21:13

I think the thread has drawn out pros and cons and 18 year olds can make their own choices of careers.
I don't think I am unqualified to be on the thread any more than anyone is on any MN thread but I am not a doctor - that is true. I know much jmore about the SQE etc exams for solicitors than the path for doctors.

I think my father and uncle who were would be very pleased to seed the success my brother has made and hopefully the one starting this Autumn will make of a medical career which in my father's case spanned so many decades (he stopped work at 77 and the NHS made him stop at 63 in the post he was then in). There are always pros and cons as to whether to go fully private practice or stay with the NHS and nothing new in that.

mumsneedwine · 07/06/2025 08:39

All these people are wrong ? There are thousands more like this. 10s of thousands sadly.

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mumsneedwine · 07/06/2025 08:40

More, to help those who think it’s just me. Remember, as a mummie, my own DD has a NTN. So insult me all you want. But this is fact. Doctors are v badly treated by the NHS.

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mumsneedwine · 03/07/2025 20:59

NHS needs doctors. It’s not really controversial is it?

Auchencar · 03/07/2025 21:53

There are very clear areas of controversy. Can you not see one single area, having read the full document? I'm surprised - if only because others can.

mumsneedwine · 03/07/2025 21:57

Don’t start. It’s so boring. For once, just try and be nice.

Needmoresleep · 04/07/2025 09:31

I hope it is good news. DD is currently applying for jobs in both the UK and Australia. The Australian application is very focussed on work experience, and indeed there was no space for her to include time spent working in a bio-medical research lab. They really wanted to know what she has actually done on the wards. Good in that she has two years of working 60 hour weeks in very busy hospitals with a fair amount of responsibility.

Locally is more difficult. Unfortunately, at least in the speciality she would like to go into, good applicants from the previous year did not get onto training so have landed the couple of Fellow roles that were available. This means that she is having to look for temporary appointments which, given the budget crisis, are limited. That said one consultant seems determined she should stay. Several of his consultant peers are locum recruits from overseas, and until they get used to the ropes (if they stay that long) the department needs a core group of staff familiar with the NHS. They are so busy that burn out is a real issue, and those on specialist training programmes often leave as soon as they can find work somewhere more popular/prestigious.

DD, who picked a busy F1/F2 rotations with the aim of following with an F3, waiting till then to apply for specialist training, has been knocked back by a system which apparently does not want her. I recognise that Auchencar believes that the current system promotes excellence, and that if doctors trained overseas perform better on the current speciality training selection process that the UK trained doctors my daughter works alongside, this is a good thing and will mean we are getting the best.

At the coal face it looks different. First, though she had always intended to build her career in the UK and believes strong in a public health system, she has lost faith in the NHS as an employer. Australia will be a chance to experience a different system. She now also says that if she then decides to look for training in the UK, she will accept parental help. Perhaps follow the trend of taking a paid for "panic Masters" in lieu of an F3 to buy the time to prepare for the ever more competitive application process. (@mumsneedwine will have the figures) Or help with building her CV. One of the resident doctors she works with is open. He bought the lot: international competition prizes, name on research papers published in obscure journals, coaching for the exams etc. No surprise. Exactly what an Asia-based Doctor friend of mine has done, though in her case she is involved in research so easy to involve her son.

DD is too honest to fake it but recognises that if the system remains unchanged she is lucky that she would be able to take time out, and would have the contacts to allow her to get involved in research etc. (On the whole, senior doctors where she is are too busy firefighting to focus on research.) Many of her peers, despite being dedicated and competent doctors, are less fortunate. Yes a number of very focussed, very academic young people will get through, as they should. They would get through whatever the selection process was, though then unlikely to work in smaller hospitals in more remote areas. For the rest, the current system has a heavy bias towards those with affluent parents either in the UK or overseas. And despite repeated calls for UK medical schools to put more emphasis on communication and other soft skills, the system rewards those whose education has focussed on academics. (Overseas private medical schools, whilst providing a good academic education, often find it difficult to offer much patient contact, particular those where the local population does not speak English. It can show, especially in the early months.)

I know Auchencar disagrees, but it seems mad to have a system where we export our young doctors in order to import others. A system that rewards "academic" achievements like prizes won in obscure competitions over solid NHS work experience and good appraisals. A system that does not give training priority to those already in the UK and likely to stay, over those who see UK training as a route to well paid jobs in Singapore or Dubai.

Australia does it differently, actively seeks our graduates, and appears to have a well regarded health service. There are large parts of the NHS that are effectively failing, whether hospital or community care. And the vicious cycle. Losing staff at Resident and Consultant level means more vacancies and more pressure on those that remain. I find it bizarre that the idea that we try first to retain those who have done well at F1 and F2 rather than recruit from overseas, is seen as controversial, even racist. I am pleased that Wes seems to have recognised this. I am also pleased that Wes is recognising that staff and patients have been poorly served by current NHS management. (Even if it means that Auchencar loses his/her job.)

Auchencar · 04/07/2025 10:02

Needmoresleep it would be good if you could give up on announcing what I think. That's up to me surely, and I can do it with less inaccuracy and misrepresentation.

Needmoresleep · 04/07/2025 10:16

Auchencar · 04/07/2025 10:02

Needmoresleep it would be good if you could give up on announcing what I think. That's up to me surely, and I can do it with less inaccuracy and misrepresentation.

Do tell us then.

Do you agree with the idea of prioritising UK based doctors for training and entry level jobs.

My reading of your many earlier posts was that you felt that the current approach of worldwide recruitment was appropriate and helped promote excellence. And that UK medical education was producing many doctors who simply were not good enough to work for the NHS and so it was good that they were forced overseas.

(I am still interested in your role. Your doctor son is well beyond the F2/F3 range and does not seem to have ventured outside the Oxbridge/London nexus. I am therefore assuming that your in-depth knowledge and certainty on NHS workforce issues is as a result of a professional interest.)

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