Medicine without chemistry A Level

[AlphaApple]

DD is in her first year of A Levels, Biology, Psychology and PE plus an EPQ. Studying is going well with As and A stars anticipated. She's always been interested in health related careers but after 2 days work experience at our local hospital is suddenly thinking medicine (having previously ruled it out). I understand without chemistry A level, options for medicine are limited.

Does anyone have any experience or advice? E.g. a foundation year or a university that doesn't require chemistry?

No, count me in too. Big time fanning.

Is your DD at the handing in stage of a NatSci/ Engineering PhD? These F2s matriculated in 2017.

Missed this yesterday. Simple name change but think that's allowed😂. No I'm not mumsneedwine but I certainly have a lot of respect for what she does in real life, particularly for DC who don't have the help many of our DC have. I've seen her help on here a lot over the years too. Have a look at some of the past applying for med threads on here and you might understand where the respect comes from.

Well somebody has to counteract the nastiness of your posts.

Blunt is not the same as nasty. Accusations of nastiness amount to a personal attack. Could you therefore either cite specific examples of 'nastiness' or ask for your post to be deleted on the basis that it breaches the guidelines.

Not really, if you look at the table in detail.

Just one example "One problem is that some of those who give advice seem to have become dependent on these threads themselves somehow, maybe out of boredom or for validation or for any other number of perfectly valid reasons that I can't think of. And yet some of those same posters have also been raging - really getting very upset - about the lack of training places for the cohorts now emerging from foundation training. This isn't joined up thinking at all."

Whether this posting is 'blunt' or 'nasty' is subjective. I lean towards the latter.

'or for any other number of perfectly valid reasons that I can't think of'.

You'll need to do better MrsMedic.

Probably best to ask to delete your own post.

No, vet med.

I don’t have the facility to search by poster I’m afraid so just wondered if you could post your source here if you could, or the raw rounded data if not from a non-public source.

I work in HE and am genuinely interested.

Thanks

Ok I'll trawl back titchy as soon as I can. There have been so many threads recently on broadly the same subject it may take a while (apologies; one of my DC is getting married next weekend so a bit squished for time).

Some of the data is not published but anyone who wants to could do a targeted FOI request.

I’m good thanks.

For everyone new to this poster, the grey rock attitude works best. Unfortunately they derail every thread about medicine. Apparently the UK should close all but 5 Medical schools as all the others are useless.

mumsneedwine even on the broadest interpretation of derail, there is no derail in mooting career progress on a thread about a medical school application with a less than ideal application offering.

Ditto all the other accusations you've levelled at other posters across these threads. Derailing to you seems to mean raising very on point points which happen to be ones you don't want discussed.

titchy I think that if you're interested enough, you might need to go back to the recent threads and read the discussion.

I really do prefer accuracy. I have never once - not once, anywhere - suggested that only five medical schools should remain. Another poster on another thread - a London consultant I think - said that there were certain medical schools that she thought weren't sufficiently good (she suggested that market forces should take their toll). As far as I recall it was around the discussion of the deficiencies of PBL.

Please stick to what posters have actually said. Quote if you can't remember accurately. But don't make completely out there statements which simply aren't correct by any stretch. The most that I've said is that there are very clearly top medical schools, that their reputation is widely accepted and that the most able students tend (sic) to go to these and those same students seem to be having far fewer problems with securing training posts than their peers in less good schools. It's blindingly obvious that this would be the pattern in any event. Outliers can be found in each school no doubt but the pattern is clear and to anyone with half a pea brain is really not surprising.

Over to you anyhow - I've nothing more to add. I might occasionally check back to correct any further inaccuracies if I have time but please remember that there's life beyond medical school and that that's pretty crucial to the young people in question.

Could you let me have some links to previous discussions then? Presumably they’ll contain links to data sources that verify your assertion that successful progression to ST/post F2 positions is correlated to university rank?

Thats all I’m interested in. Some actual data.

Hi titchy. It's not 'my' assertion. That sounds a little loaded even if unintended. The various threads were on AIBU and Higher Ed:

https://www.mumsnet.com/search/advanced#/?username=Needmoresleep&type=all&from=2025-01-30&to=2025-02-01&topics=&page=1&sort=_search

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amibeingunreasonable/5275818-aibu-to-be-angry-that-government-policy-means-young-doctors-nurses-and-other-hcps-cannot-find-jobs?page=32&reply=142808543

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/highereducation/5283526-any-other-medic-mums-nervously-waiting-for-f1-allocation?page=6&reply=142801405

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amibeingunreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=38&reply=142114366

Those are not in chronological order. It should be Ideal Uni #1. No Jobs #2. Angry #3. F1 #4.

The two AIBU threads are probably the ones to target assuming you don't want to spend too much time on this.

A late reply to this - physiotherapy specialising in women's health could be an excellent career.

She could have a look at the inspirational Elaine Miller who is a women's health physio (and also a stand-up comedian!)

Anecdotally, all the physios that I work with are much happier than the medics - medics in the training years and beyond are having a very hard time at the moment.

I too found that at medical school my chemistry knowledge was a lot more relevant than my biology - biochemistry in particular was very challenging.

Good luck to your daughter whatever path she decides to go down :)

Definitely not going to trawl through a tonne of threads looking for evidence. I have found this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33273109/

Conclusions: Students attending a medical school with greater academic performance and research focus are more likely to apply and subsequently embark on a clinical-academic career. However, students wishing to embark a clinical-academic career from any medical school have an equal chance of success.

This, which is specifically about surgery: https://publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/10.1308/rcsbull.2018.90#sec-4

Conclusions: It is incumbent on the current generation of surgeons and educators to understand what factors influence students’ career choices, and to focus their attention on addressing the underlying issues that may dissuade students from aspiring to a surgical career. Without concentrating on these important points, surgical recruitment may continue to falter, jeopardising our supply of future talent.This study illustrates that the choice of medical school affects a student’s likelihood of becoming a surgeon. The next step is to understand what it is that institutions producing large numbers of surgeons are doing differently, in order to reduce any inequalities in experience that may exist between medical schools.

And finally this: https://pmejournal.org/articles/10.1007/S40037-020-00636-7

Results Three overarching themes emerged from the analysis: The ‘influence of medical school’, ‘perceived suitability to specialty’ and ‘belonging and fitting in’. A thematic map captured the participants’ perceptions on why their preferences had changed, with major influences echoing existing research. However, novel findings included participants’ personalities and enthusiasm changing over time, the need for a ‘sense of belonging’ and participants defining the term ‘variety’ uniquely, perceiving their current specialty preference to match their definition.

Discussion This was an original, in-depth study on changing career preferences, which is an ill-defined subject within the literature. Analysis revealed preferences changed for a variety of medical school, personal and specialty reasons, leading to the construction of an updated model of medical career decision-making. Medical career preference remains a dynamic and ever-evolving phenomenon, influenced by an intricate interplay of internal and external factors. An understanding of this is crucial for future workforce planning.

So unless someone has access to robust data, I am going to conclude that medical careers can be influenced by the individual, and are not entirely pre-determined by GCSE results, A Level choices or medical school....

Thanks @StellaAndCrow , I also think she should give physiotherapy serious consideration as well. She's looking into some work experience with physios.

I do find physios generally very cheerful, and there are so many career pathways for them.

@Auchencar I have no idea which medical schools are the most prestigious / deemed to be better than others but just wanted to comment on the process of applying - I can see that you've not answered whether you're a doctor / involved in the application process / have had a child applying.

You criticise the lack of forward planning by students / lack of advice on this aspect, and suggest that cohorts from particular unis will do better on the job front in coming years.

The UCAT exam which is used for selection for interview is not an intelligence test. There are students with 4 x A stars, 10 x 9s at GCSE who don't score highly. There are some students without stellar academics that smash the UCAT and can apply to any medical school they choose. A cohort at any medical school will have a range of academic success.

You can't be a doctor without getting into medical school. The advice given by @mumsneedwine and others is about maximising your chances of getting into med school (and enjoying the 5 years that you are there for). As this thread has pointed out - progression is down to the individual (and the system). My daughter is a 2nd year medic, thanks to fantastic advice on the med applicant threads.

Interesting to note the coyness of some posters regarding their own credentials, particularly when juxtaposed with such direct posting styles.

I haven't read the whole thread, so someone else may have responded with the evidence you require. If not, trainees from post-2000 medical schools are more likely to fail postgraduate examinations and not progress, due to a combination of lower prior attainment and teaching. See for example:

McManus et al., "Exploring UK medical school differences: the MedDifs study of selection, teaching, student and F1 perceptions, postgraduate outcomes and fitness to practise," BMC Medicine 2020). doi.org/10.1186/s12916-020-01572-3

Ellis et al., "Does performance at the intercollegiate Membership of the Royal Colleges of Surgeons (MRCS) examination vary according to UK medical school and course type? A retrospective cohort study" BMJ Open 2022 bmjopen.bmj.com/content/12/1/e054616

One conclusion from that report