Medicine without chemistry A Level

[AlphaApple]

DD is in her first year of A Levels, Biology, Psychology and PE plus an EPQ. Studying is going well with As and A stars anticipated. She's always been interested in health related careers but after 2 days work experience at our local hospital is suddenly thinking medicine (having previously ruled it out). I understand without chemistry A level, options for medicine are limited.

Does anyone have any experience or advice? E.g. a foundation year or a university that doesn't require chemistry?

Really ? Again, no one cares what Uni you go to when applying for jobs (except for a narrow few people on here who constantly play the same narrative). Believe me it don’t, matters to me not one bit.

I have helped students get into all sorts of Unis for many years and there is no correlation between success as a doctor and Uni attended. And unemployment this year, which is the first year it’s happened recently, has no bearing on Uni attended either. But apparently I’m a lone voice in this (along with the BMA, several members of the RCP and the chairman of the GMC 🤦‍♀️).

Just apply and enjoy 5 years of Uni. Become a doctor and move abroad if it’s still rubbish here. US matches out now and I know several who gave successfully done that from F2 this year.

The F3 jobs are not given out blind.I’m involved in the interviews not selection for interviews ( stupid I know!) There are interviews, questions are asked and progress discussed. And yes we often discuss where they studied, and yes we have opinions( as we see the general quality of the graduates coming through as F1s!) There is no problem with someone deciding on medicine late. But they need to show academic aptitude, resilience, progress and real passion etc…
I don’t like the current system, and I personally can’t change it. But being a medic at the high end is really hard and having achieved well in rigorous A levels is just one way of cutting the wood I’m afraid

You need Chemistry for medicine. I've had previous students come back to visit me who got A grade in A level Chemistry and still found Chemistry for medicine hard. Your DD has been poorly advised if she was told she'd get offers without Biology and Chemistry.

I have one DC in Y5 at Newcastle. A stars coming out their ears and a sky high UCAT. Could have applied anywhere and got four offers. Many of their friends are of similar calibre. Names on papers/presenting at conferences etc all underway. I do find the current situation after F2 concerning in general but I have no concerns that the DC I know from their cohort wouldn't be able to hold their own in competition for places in a fair process. Auchencar, out of interest, are you a doctor? Asking as I don't personally recognise some of the things you say and have never heard colleagues make such assertions either. And mumsneedwine you rock. I am an insider and didn't know a fraction of things you know about applications.

The only problem with this statement - as though it's a fact - is that it isn't borne out in reality.

You seem to find it extraordinarily hard to get your head around the fact that those with the highest prior attainment tend (please note tend) to congregate at the top universities. If Oxford was renamed Jemima and Cambridge Puddleduck (and Imperial and UCL etc) then those same students would be the ones with the easiest path in terms of career progression. It's not the name; it's the level of ability of the students coupled with the exceptional teaching which in almost all cases will add considerable value.

It's an absolute nonsense to say it doesn't matter.

Cue an anecdote in an attempt to confound the idea that this stuff does actually matter.

I would also point out that it's possible to have a hugely enjoyable time at any university, excellent or not.

But apparently I’m a lone voice in this (along with the BMA, several members of the RCP and the chairman of the GMC 🤦‍♀️)

You've pulled this out of context. I said you were lone in relation to the piece copied from the Oxford website, since you said there were no top unis:

BEST IN THE WORLD FOR MEDICINE
Oxford Medical Sciences have been ranked number one for the last ten years in the Times Higher Education World University Rankings for clinical, pre-clinical and health sciences.

Ranked top in the world ten years running suggests....top in the UK also.

The BMC and the GMC have never said that there's no rank order for medical schools.

MrsMedic could you tell me which things you don't recognise?

The Oxford fixation for a start. Now could you please answer, are you a doctor?

It's not any sort of fixation. Please don't try to make it out to be. I merely copied what was on the Oxford website. If you want to accuse anyone of fixation, can I refer you to the Times Higher Ed. They seem to have been fixated for the past ten years.

I don't respond very well to a stentorian voice. Nor do I have to reveal any hand. It's of zero consequence to me what you think of any comment I make. It's a conversation not a police interrogation :) Obviously I know what I'm talking about or I wouldn't talk.

I guess it depends on the league table:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2024/sep/07/best-uk-universities-for-medicine-league-table

People too often come on here and announce how important they are therefore what they say has to be valid. I'll just say what I think and people can leave it or take it. It's no more than a conversation.

So that would be a No then.

Very clearly I haven't said no.

It's in the reply (or not as the case may be).

Physics will get you no where with medicine, and i believe only Cambridge wants maths.

Again where is your information from? Maths and physics arent required almost anywhere and loads of med applications dont have them

I’m absolutely fascinated at the thought that at an F3 interview a candidate would be quizzed on their GCSE grades, which as we know are far more a function of social class, going to the right school and/or getting tutored.

I understand that DD is not the strongest candidate for medical school, but I don’t think that will pre-determine her entire career trajectory. If people are telling me that it actually does then no wonder the UK has a problem with social mobility!

Not all business/economics/law/PPE graduates will end up in the big four or magic circle (not even the children of mumsnetters!) but they will have the chance to have interesting and rewarding careers nevertheless.

My DD is studying at Cambridge, not medicine but science based, on a long course and knows quite a few F2. The F2s she knows are also having similar issues with employment and looking to undertake masters, moving to Australia etc. It is across the board the issues this year and having a Cambridge degree is making no difference it seems.

Do you have any firm evidence that those having more difficulty finding post-F2 positions went to lower-ranked universities or had lower A Level grades? Is there a correlation?

No, there is no correlation, but some people will only ever believe what they want.

Just read all the new posts (been at work). It’s the same every year. People post comments that have no basis in facts, just personal prejudice. And stupid snobbery. To think GCSEs or A levels are used to recruit post F2 is bonkers.

And hello @Lovecatsanddogsnice to ‘see’ you 😊

@littlemissprossecoso you don’t think WP students are any good then ? Because Newcastle accept BBB and others AAB and they seem to turn out good doctors. Why do their A level grades matter after 7 years ? Do you prefer rich kids who can afford tutors and courses ? Be good to tell the Unis this !

@MrsMedicIve been doing this for too long ! This year the job situation has gone v badly wrong. No jobs (the ones on NHS website all seem to go within a day and if you manage to get an application in you never hear back). Training ratios are 20:1. It’s a big fat mess for any F2 this year. Many excellent candidates being turned away, even with amazing portfolios & stellar grades. From ALL Unis. For Paeds you needed a PhD equivalent to get an interview- not a job, just an interview !

Ah ok. It's just there's v little posting history (yup I checked) and she's totally fangirling you. Just seemed a bit much. But hey, that's just me

@ramonaquimbynot sure I’ve had a fan before 😂. I do my best to be helpful though and give out the best advice I can every year, to help prospective medics. Tough this year as job situation so bad, but I’m always hopeful.

Yes titchy I do. I don't want to turn this thread into a re-run of the last four or five though, so if you could read back maybe? (that's intended to be a polite suggestion!). I mean, also bucket upon bucket of anecdotal evidence but that's not good currency, however much others like to deploy it. There really is no contest between certain groups of students as to who will progress up the training ladder and who won't. It goes way beyond who has been to a research heavy uni etc. (There are outliers at every uni of course; I'm referring to very strong trends).

The issue for mumsneedwine is that she's carved out a niche on the application threads for which she gets vast gratitude from parents who should really be taking a step back at this stage and allowing their DC autonomy. Her mantra is that uni doesn't matter, all are equal but that just isn't the case except for on the narrowest of narrow measures that all students will emerge with the prefix doctor. Once mumsneedwine concedes that there are differences (significant ones), her edifice collapses and I think that's a concern for her (on the basis that I can't think of any rational or evidence based reason for persisting in it other than that). The application threads never look to the future; the single goal is to get into medical school - any medical school. The future is wholly ignored (or misrepresented).

There are lots of subjects the professional bodies prefer not to make statements about because they're too politically sensitive. Reading between the lines is a necessity and it's not right that impressionable young people are encouraged into a profession on false pretences. They need to be aware in order to make proper choices.

It's clear that the mood music is towards a huge number of junior doctors never really progressing. The professional bodies seem to be doing a damage limitation act in trying to beef up the position of locally employed doctors but they know very well that the government doesn't have the money or the inclination to fund training posts in proportion to the expansion of medical school places. It suits the government to create a large bank of qualified doctors who will actually go nowhere fast but have put a lot of time, effort and arguably money into getting to that position.

Of course they can always take themselves off to Australia to do unpopular jobs there - some will love it too. There's a lot to be said for Australia. But it's not what most of these young people seem to be aiming for long term.