Any other medic mums nervously waiting for F1 allocation?

[PiggyPokkyFool]

DD1 was told they should be through at 7.30am and is on wards for 10 so is nervously waiting and hoping it will not be much longer.
Pretty crazy they could be sent anywhere based on a lottery.
Anyone else waiting and fancy keeping me company?

Has she looked at one year posts in the Hebrides? Her only issue there might be accommodation but people on the islands bend over backwards to help anyone medical find a place to stay so I'm sure it would work out before she took up any post.

Of DDs friends they have currently made a total of 27 applications. 25 have never replied and 2 closed early as too many applicants. A small sample but is over a range of specialities in a range of areas.

Needmoresleep the NHS Scotland website may yield some posts of interest - especially if your DD is game for out of the way places. That puts her in a good position tbh.

Lots more will apply for posts in Glasgow or Edinburgh and Central Belt than in the Highlands and Islands - possibly the way to go?

Up towards the Highlands and Islands I should say. Depends on what level of post she's prepared to accept.

Please, please.

Unlike you we as a family do not have a lot of medical experience. DD simply assumed that she could follow the path of CTFs who had taught her at medical school and complete her F1/F2 and then take an F3.

All doctor jobs are now on the occupation shortage list. All are open to applicants from across the world. There is no resident priority, and plenty of anecdote suggesting that Consultants trying to find something for a promising F2 have been unable to. To save money the NHS is even consolidating NHS bank jobs into posts which then are advertised world wide, meaning less work for those in the UK. Yes young doctors can and do apply but the competition is huge and only a few will get through.

I was talking to an MP yesterday who said that she is now hearing from constituents whose DC did go to Australia for 2/3 years but would like to come back but they too, despite the extra experience, simply cannot find work in the UK.

Someone from Cambridge told me that many of their F2 Cambridge graduates are opting to take Masters degrees, as work is so hard to find.

The fact is that immigration law was changed in 2021. It may be anecdote that this change has caused the unintended consequence of doctor unemployment in the UK, but given data won't be available until next year this is the best we have.

Ergo advice that new F1s have to hit the ground running on enhancing their CVs. It will take a while to sort out the legislation and clear the backlog.

I would love to hear of jobs which are able to give priority to UK residents. They are definitely needed. Anonymised applications and set scoring for interview means that the newly qualified at at a disadvantage, especially given how many applications are being received.

You may be right in that there is not a problem for good young doctors to find work. It would be lovely if that were the case.. But odd that a group of MN posters who were on a medical school entrance thread many years ago discovered that our DC in different parts of the country perceive a problem and that their peers do as well.

We need to agree to differ.

She is already in an out of the way place, where she and her friends want to stay. Jobs are increasingly filled via overseas agencies, which is short sighted as recruits will often move on to England when as they can. Perhaps Scotland has more autonomy.

Looking at the jobs in Scotland, v few are open to F2s. A lot need to be ST3+.

Gosh, well you were the one who mentioned the Hebrides and I happen to know that there are a lot of Clinical Fellow jobs around in Scotland generally (and others at a lower grade). I thought you meant that your DD was prepared to move to find a one year contract - it seems she isn't. Fair enough but don't get ratty when people make sensible suggestions following on from something you've said. That's pretty churlish. Clearly your DD is limiting herself if she insists on staying in one area.

Some are open to F2s.

Tbh it really wouldn't be a bad shout to do a year exclusively as an HCA. There are huge recruitment difficulties in more remote areas. I think that might be quite impressive going forward but obviously an unusual approach.

There are Clinical fellow jobs available everywhere. They are attracting hundreds of applicants. It is relatively hard for a UK based doctor to be able to compete with the additional paper qualifications and achievements offered by the best applicants from overseas.

But not really relevant to a thread on F1 placements. The point for current F1s, which I assume you agree with is that they be ready to go all out to apply for a training post mid F2.

@Auchencar you are funny. So a 7 year trained doctor should go work as an HCA on minimum wage. Are you paying their rent ?

And before you accuse me of being HCA ist, they do an amazing job. But if these young people had wanted to be an HCA they could gave skipped all the training and debt.

Interesting. I know one very impressive young person who did exactly that and had some very interesting colleagues.

They're currently roaring ahead. Hugely respected in their hospital. On the other hand it was a voluntary move, for experience.

It's a very great asset not to be too self important.

Student loan repayments for the year would be minimal.

In a remote hospital, or in a London teaching hospital? The latter might be give access to the sort of experience, mentoring, and possibly research and would help keep the newly qualified doctor at least employed. But for someone aiming for a training place or a permanent job what would a remote cottage hospital offer.

@Auchencar must be nice to have the money to be able to afford to do what you like.

A major central London teaching hospital. Their hands got just as dirty there and sleeves rolled up just as high as in any remote cottage hospital.

As I say, a very impressive young person and remarkably popular with patients, peers and senior staff alike.

This young person had had a state education, been on an Oxford Opportunity Bursary and had no financial help from any parent (divorced parents, father not in the picture). I think the annual salary was around £17k but I couldn't be sure. Their mother didn't live in London and so the young person had to pay rent (flatshare).

There are actually some very impressive young people out there even if you don't know them yourself.

The sneering at others who do well entirely off their own initiative is seriously unpleasant and it says a great deal about you as a person.

@Auchencar you really are quite unpleasant, I really really hope you talk to your patients and colleagues with better attitude.

All my students are poor. Most live in social housing, lots are PP, many EAL and a large quantity have experienced the care system. Do not attempt to lecture me on 'exceptional young people'. I spend every day with them.

I'd love lessons on how to live on £17,000 a year in London. Minimum wage is £23,000 a year. That's some budgeting !

This young person spent a year as an HCA during the Covid year of 2020/2021. My understanding was that the salary was then around £17k. But as I said, I don't know. I also don't know how they budgeted. They managed, although not comfortably. There's exceptional and then there's exceptional plus I guess. You absolutely do not have a monopoly on knowing exceptional young people.

Never said I did, but living on £17,000 is beyond exceptional at budgeting in London. Why did they not work as a doctor during covid ? Thought they even brought back retired ones as so short ?

£17k was evidently enough to eat and pay rent for a flatshare with a close friend. If you recall, there wasn't much socialising to pay for during Covid and not much need for smart clothes.

The decision appears to have been shrewd and has informed a subsequent career. Some foundation doctors are far too pleased with themselves and don't have the ability or initiative to go much further. It's a big help to prove you can slum it and genuinely work in a collegiate way, with respect for all those in the team.

The F2s we've been hearing about do seem to think everything should arrive on a plate. I suspect Covid actually has something to do with this - a sense of being hard done by and therefore owed something. This idea of work life balance is the tip of the iceberg. Then the ! response to the idea of applying for JCR jobs and submitting the data to help future cohorts. And the idea of can go to the beach but no time for education. Competition is good. I'm certainly all for it. We need filters, especially in the medical profession.

I strongly dislike the sneering at the young people who are actually successful though. It seems very bitter.

This thread seems to have become a little personal!
I think that there are opportunities out there but the competition is indeed fierce. In my day of house officers etc….,( showing my age now!) we did have to work all the hours and cover all the shifts. That does now seem to have improved for the most part. However, I do believe being a medic, in whatever discipline you choose takes huge commitment.
And I agree with what has been said about needing to improve cvs/ masters etc.. but hasn’t that always been the case? Currently my dd, is in Bristol but is also doing volunteering at the local dementia care home and special needs school. She’s doing all the hours to put things on her cv, as are most of her friends. At expense of their social lives.
But even in my day it was like this.
I feel like although it’s harder in some ways, in others it’s been made easier. The world has opened up in a way that it wasn’t when I trained.
I guess it’s swings and roundabouts.
And the pendulum perpetual.

@littlemissprosseco but were you also £100,000 in debt with competition ratios of 40:1 for each job (will be higher this year)? I know things weren't easy but unemployed doctors never seemed to be a thing before this year. Currently locum market has gone, getting a F3 equivalent job is tough as jobs close within days due to too many applicants, and training is a bum fight. Most of the doctors would just like a job, any job, in August.

@Auchencar no sneering from me. I'd love to know how anyone could survive on £17k in London. I'm just impressed !

Still not sure why a fully qualified doctor didn't work as a fully qualified doctor during the pandemic though. Most medical students were working as HCAS.

All medical students I know have worked as HCAs for at least part of their degree. Mainly because they need to earn money and may as well learn medicine at the same time. Some Uni courses train you as part of the degree so you can get bank work, which is a fantastic idea.