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Any other medic mums nervously waiting for F1 allocation?

147 replies

PiggyPokkyFool · 27/02/2025 09:03

DD1 was told they should be through at 7.30am and is on wards for 10 so is nervously waiting and hoping it will not be much longer.
Pretty crazy they could be sent anywhere based on a lottery.
Anyone else waiting and fancy keeping me company?

OP posts:
Auchencar · 09/03/2025 09:19

Yes exactly Ilikeanimalsmorethanpeople. But avoid mentioning that they do have time to go to the beach :) It seems to be a bit pick 'n mix.

Just glancing back at my slew of posts I see that I've made a fair few typos; apologies again. One was a reference to consultants on this thread being slagged off (lack of empathy apparently :)). I meant threads plural of course, since there are now multiple threads with different names but all about the same subject in substance and all largely dominated by a tiny number of parents whose DC haven't used their foundation years to tick the boxes required to progress (but of course can remedy that going forward if they choose), and who are fuming on their DCs' behalf.

Ilikeanimalsmorethanpeople · 09/03/2025 09:42

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 09:19

Yes exactly Ilikeanimalsmorethanpeople. But avoid mentioning that they do have time to go to the beach :) It seems to be a bit pick 'n mix.

Just glancing back at my slew of posts I see that I've made a fair few typos; apologies again. One was a reference to consultants on this thread being slagged off (lack of empathy apparently :)). I meant threads plural of course, since there are now multiple threads with different names but all about the same subject in substance and all largely dominated by a tiny number of parents whose DC haven't used their foundation years to tick the boxes required to progress (but of course can remedy that going forward if they choose), and who are fuming on their DCs' behalf.

Edited

I wont lie I have had f1s say that they need a specific day as they are doing an airport run or my favourite was that they won't be in the country. Mis use of these days is absolutely rife which is why we have the rules in place for them to be taken (not allowed to add them onto AL), of course we are always happy to move them if a course is booked and we have proof, its unfortunate but a few who have abused the policy are now making divisions clamp down on it being taken in the 2hr slots!

Needmoresleep · 09/03/2025 10:27

No. Not at all. As has been explained several times.

This thread is about F1 allocations. My point is that if contractual terms are not the same across the UK, some are disadvantaged when it comes to making a training application. We still do not know what your role is within the health sector, but assuming you have worked nights at some point in your career you will know the havoc it plays. Ergo even not working nights as an F1 is an advantage. My aim was to warn new F1s that competition for training places is intense, that it is not a level playing field and that you really need to be working to get a training place during F2, because those entry level jobs are now pretty inaccessible., .

The AIBU thread is about the fact that changes to immigration law has opened up all doctor jobs, including entry level jobs suitable for newly qualified doctors, to worldwide competition. Yes it happened because a small number of posters, who were on medical school threads eight or nine years ago discovered that NONE of our F2 DC expected to be able to find work as doctors this summer. Most expect to have to go to Australia. The other is hoping to survive on a small number of NHS Bank shifts (these too have largely dried up because of the increasing number of unemployed doctors) presumably supplemented backed up by some other zero hours jobs.

Yes we are worried about our DC who have worked hard for eight years and now find they are not wanted. However, and as someone who has worked in policy positions in Whitehall, NHS staff and patients and should also be worried. What is clear is that concerns expressed by a fairly random selection of F2s is pretty universal. They can no longer do what the CTFs at their medical schools wee doing, which is to finish F2 and then study for exams.

My cousin's daughter worked as a CTF in Oxford whilst studying to get on GP training. She is happy being a GP and will almost certainly following her parents in spending a career serving the community. The trouble is that if she were an F2 now, international competition means she might struggle to find an F3 post, struggle against the massively increased competition to get on training, struggle to get a GP post given jobs again are open to international competition. (GP unemployment is a thing. UK jobs are attractive because of the scope they give to resettle a family in the UK.)

You clearly do not see a problem. From memory, correct me if I am wrong, you have a son who was Oxbridge followed by F1/F2 in London though before the immigration changes were implemented (and before the competition from overseas medical school graduates exploded.) I assume that he has remained in London, rather than select a training post in an out of the way place. You seem to see the current system as merit based. And that merit is achieved by effectively demanding ever stronger CVs, based on academic and research achievements, from those selected for training.

Beyond the fact that having the tax payer fund people like our DC to study medicine only for them not to be able to find work is bonkers, I see several problems. Academic doctors make good academic doctors. Do all specialists in the UK, including GPs need to have lots of additional academic credentials? You also seem to believe that by using academic criteria which means that over 50% of training places go to graduates of international medical schools (IMGs), we get better GPs, psychiatrists, geriatricians etc. Yes lots of overseas doctors are very good but not all. Some medical training involves very little patient contact, which gives rise to adjustment problems when in the NHS. (Even the BAPIO academy in India that charges large fees to prepare for applications to the UK admit Indian trained doctors are often lacking in soft skills.) Then there is the problem of commitment. Increasing numbers of IMGs are likely to take their prestigious UK training and run off to private practice in Dubai or Singapore or Australia. This leaves us having to recruit anew at Consultant level, when adjustment to the NHS can be tough, and at a seniority where top Consultants can choose where they go, and the NHS is rarely at the top of their list.

Do you really believe that the current system is delivering merit across the the country and at all levels?

What do you think could be improved?

(Sorry about the divert. I will return to the AIBU thread, and doubtless Auchencar will follow. And if anyone else is concerned about the current situation please write to your MP. This is a repeat of a similar problem of 20 years go when it took about four years to properly ring-fence key jobs so that UK based doctors could build a career here, rather than have to leave. The sooner the Government recognise the damage recent changes in immigration law are causing, the sooner it will be fixed.)

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 10:45

Needmoresleep I seem to have read the same very long posts about your DD and her deanery and her choices and the reasons underlying them across all these threads and so understandably they've started to morph into one. I think the thread titles have become secondary.

I've no idea why you think that working during the foundation years for a training post application is novel. It isn't.

Second, you make unrecognisable assumptions about foundation experience in deaneries other than your own DD's. Particularly about London. What you say isn't credible to anyone familiar with the latter.

Third, another false distinction between 'academic' and 'other' doctors. Some doctors are brighter than others and more obviously equipped for career progression. It in no ways means that they don't also have all the other skills and characteristics required to make an excellent doctor. One can be highly intelligent/ intellectual and also be a very caring person with excellent communication skills and a collegiate outlook.

I'm afraid that you're crafting a narrative to make sense of your own circumstances, or those of your DD. She's clearly very bright; she's got plenty of opportunity to make up for a bit of lost time. The doom seems excessive.

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 10:47

Do you really believe that the current system is delivering merit across the the country and at all levels?

No absolutely not. I think there are far too many not at all good doctors who shouldn't be let anywhere near complicated stuff.

And that's one reason that I don't share your very strong antipathy towards PAs and do share your view that the expansion of medical school places was a rubbish idea.

I also think that a lot of IMGs are excellent and considerably more talented than plenty of our home educated doctors.

mumsneedwine · 09/03/2025 10:50

@Needmoresleep you write so eloquently and make such strong points, it's hard to understand how anyone can not see the truth. But let's face it, Trump got in again, so there's nought so weird as folk.

Fortunately others in the medical profession do see the issues and there are some v senior doctors advocating for our F2s. Lots and lots of them I'm told. Many in London too. I have a glimmer of hope for the future. Not for ours as this year it's too late. But for the ones coming after, the ones on here who were waiting for deaneries, things might improve.

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 10:53

And yet mumsneedwine all the consultants who chose to reply to you on these threads putting a contrary view were derided by yourself.

I think what the London consultants are saying is rather more multi layered than what you believe that they're saying.

Needmoresleep · 09/03/2025 11:15

The master of unevidenced argument.

What are London consultants saying then?

And consultants elsewhere?

Needmoresleep · 09/03/2025 11:22

My recollection of the contrary view was that this was on the first thread when we discovered that our DC were all reporting the same thing. We then started to realise that they all believed that entry level jobs were very oversubscribed and then worked out that this was as a result of changes in immigration law which meant that doctors already in the UK now got no priority.

As I recall that consultant first said our DC, and their peers needed to apply as otherwise the NHS would assume that they were choosing to go to Australia. And that the NHS did not keep data on the number of applicants per position. Which to me was acknowledgement that there might be a problem, but that this problem would not apparent in NHS stats and therefore not be on the radar.

The consultant then left the thread and has not reappeared.

Interpretation.

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 11:27

Needmoresleep · 09/03/2025 11:15

The master of unevidenced argument.

What are London consultants saying then?

And consultants elsewhere?

But Needmoresleep you're often citing a 'friend' here and a 'friend' there and as for another uber prolific poster across all these threads - knows everyone in every high place.

So please don't tell me that my comment is masterful since that is laughably ironic.

What London consultants are saying is how much the best of the IMGs bring to the NHS.

Mad idea to expand medical school places.

And that some of the more meh foundation doctors need to up their game or move on.

In a nutshell. Which loses some of the subtlety by its nutshell nature.

What 'truth' is mumsneedwine referring to anyhow? Confused

Needmoresleep · 09/03/2025 11:34

Yes the best IMGs bring a lot to the NHS, but so do the best British graduates.

And equally some overseas recruits are very weak. And some UK graduates are weak.

(FWIW I do think that medical schools should be less lenient on some of their weaker students, but would argue that the vast majority will make competent doctors. Which is why I assume the GMC is bringing in a national exam.)

What does that prove?

My questions again:

Do you really believe that the current system is delivering merit across the the country and at all levels?
What do you think could be improved?

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 11:40

Needmoresleep · 09/03/2025 11:22

My recollection of the contrary view was that this was on the first thread when we discovered that our DC were all reporting the same thing. We then started to realise that they all believed that entry level jobs were very oversubscribed and then worked out that this was as a result of changes in immigration law which meant that doctors already in the UK now got no priority.

As I recall that consultant first said our DC, and their peers needed to apply as otherwise the NHS would assume that they were choosing to go to Australia. And that the NHS did not keep data on the number of applicants per position. Which to me was acknowledgement that there might be a problem, but that this problem would not apparent in NHS stats and therefore not be on the radar.

The consultant then left the thread and has not reappeared.

Interpretation.

You need to revisit the various threads in that case. The consultant that you're referring to is an Oxford consultant who drove a steamroller through mumsneedwine's interpretation of the statistics which were posted.

Yes, the consultant did advocate for mumsneedwine's DD to apply for clinical fellow posts and to report her application profile to her deanery and mumsneedwine replied with an exclamation mark or two and more stuff about how busy her DD was so no way Jose. The consultant replied quite tartly that she had thought that maybe if the DD (and others like her) were prepared to go out waving placards for pay, maybe they'd find it in themselves to do this small thing for future generations. As far as I recall that comment met with zero response. Plus ca change.

It's the subsequent threads that I'm really referring to however. An incidental benefit of re-reading them might be to take in just how rude, churlish and juvenile certain posters have been.

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 11:42

And Needmoresleep, when you say 'we all', I think there are a total of around five posters only and that total included yourself and mumsneedwine. It really is a tiny number and all the DC in question seemed to share the same theme: work life balance during the foundation years and all in less competitive deaneries (a voluntary choice for their cohort).

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 11:46

I've replied no to your question already.

Even if I had an instant solution, I'm not prepared to spend a beautiful day tapping it out on MN only to have you be astonishingly closed to anything anyone says unless it precisely echoes your own views.

Needmoresleep · 09/03/2025 11:56

Try me?

Or is it easier to sit there and rubbish other ideas and DC.

Given your involvement in the health service I would hope for more than that.

My own view is that there is a real problem. And that urgent action needs to be taken so to ensure that good F2s can find work as doctors in the UK.

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 12:07

I think you'd struggle to point to a post where I've 'rubbished other ideas' to spread talent more evenly across the UK.

I haven't rubbished any DC other than pointing out the very obvious: that work life balance is something which inevitably gets compromised in the early years. And not only in Medicine.

Others have pointed out the massive entitlement on display on these threads.

But I have no intention of setting the world to rights when the upshot will be yet more rudeness. That would be the case even if it was peeing with rain, which (fortunately for the rest of my day) it isn't.

ramonaquimby · 09/03/2025 13:52

omg can you just stop
I am really put off contributing to these threads due to the acerbic tone of so so many posts from a small number of posters.
it's nice to see some others challenging the stats and anecdotal information that is regularly shared by this small number of posters.
@Auchencar, enjoy that gorgeous sun today!

mumsneedwine · 09/03/2025 17:00

I've got a burnt nose from being out on a yacht. Can recommend having a child who lives by the coast.

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 19:34

My own DC can recommend having lived their whole lives in a house right on one of the most beautiful coastlines in the country and are now able to enjoy the contrast of London to pursue their careers, albeit with a disproportionate amount of their salary going to greedy landlords. They can return home for r&r at a moment's notice with a view of the sea from almost all windows and I'm fortunate enough to be able to enjoy the beach year round, as are our dogs, since the beach is two minutes walk away max.

I think I'm the one with bragging rights here mumsneedwine. Mine have had twenty one years of tranquil surroundings before needing to hit the smoke. But they're doing it alongside all of their uni friends - the outliers are the ones in the regions.

Auchencar · 09/03/2025 19:42

@Auchencar, enjoy that gorgeous sun today!

Thank you, I did. The dogs snoozed in the sun while I prepped my vegetable patch for seeding and we've just got back from a walk along the beach watching the sun go down. Absolutely perfect and very grateful to live where I do. I take nothing for granted.

mumsneedwine · 10/03/2025 10:57

Ah the regions. Where the less lucky people live 😂.

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 10:16

ramonaquimby · 09/03/2025 13:52

omg can you just stop
I am really put off contributing to these threads due to the acerbic tone of so so many posts from a small number of posters.
it's nice to see some others challenging the stats and anecdotal information that is regularly shared by this small number of posters.
@Auchencar, enjoy that gorgeous sun today!

I assume you meant me. For the record I try to stay constructive when on MN. My aim was to add some advice and experience ie:

  • competition for training places is intense. My best guess is that less than one in 10 or one in fifteen F2s will get onto training straight from F2.
  • don't count on an F3 job to allow time to study. These are now very hard to find.
  • to get there you need to be absolutely focussed. Enhancements to CV come first. Enter those competitions, find the Consultant who wants help with research, etc.
  • choose rotations so that you are more lightly loaded on your fourth and fifth rotation. Something without nights, possibly community or psych.
  • be aware that contracts across the UK vary. The old 2002 contract does not allow for personal development time, so if you are on that you will need to compensate.
  • research activity also varies across the UK, so again if you are somewhere very stretched where research is minimal think outside the box. Perhaps approach someone from your medical school or similar.
  • Save in case you need to take a "panic Masters". I understand that these are increasingly common, particularly by graduates from places like Cambridge who narrowly missed a training place first time round. Or think outside the box and look at schemes overseas designed to prepare doctors for UK jobs and training.

My earlier question to Auchencar was genuine.
Do you really believe that the current system is delivering merit across the the country and at all levels?
What do you think could be improved?

I am fairly new to this, in that we are not a medical family, DD made her choices and I supported her. Now, facing unemployment, she and I realise they were probably the wrong ones. Auchencar clearly knows a lot more about the process thus her contribution would be useful.

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 10:25

Needmoresleep I'm made a tedious-to-other-people-I'm-sure number of contributions. I've also answered your first question (twice). Perhaps read the GMC reports I've posted on your own thread in AIBU if you want a fair assessment of where we are now and what needs to be focussed on.

Your own DD hasn't made a single application this year as you yourself have told us. Not even one. Fair enough - but the surest way to be unemployed is to not make a single application. As it is, she apparently intends to follow the sun and go to Australia which may well prove to be refreshing for her and won't dent her subsequent UK career at all. You also say she's looking forward to it. So really - much less bleak than you make it sound.

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 10:31

Your own DD hasn't made a single application this year as you yourself have told us. Not even one. Fair enough - but the surest way to be unemployed is to not make a single application. As it is, she apparently intends to follow the sun and go to Australia which may well prove to be refreshing for her and won't dent her subsequent UK career at all. You also say she's looking forward to it. So really - much less bleak than you make it sound

This is absolutely untrue. It might have been true six weeks ago, but since then both she and I have learned a lot about the situation and options. That said none of her friends have yet managed to get a job in the UK. Australia is looking like the only option for all of them. A real pity as she is not a sunshine girl. She would probably prefer the Hebrides.

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 10:41

All I can say is that six weeks ago on these various threads you told us that your DD hadn't made a single application and you repeated that subsequently (several times afair). You haven't updated that anywhere until now so I think I can be forgiven for assuming that that was still the case. I think it was suggested that your DD should try applications for JCR posts especially since the vast majority are out around now. So something positive has come from these threads - that's good - hopefully she'll hear back with encouraging news soon and can revert to her original plan of JCF and prepping her application for training next year. I hope it works out as she wants.