Any other medic mums nervously waiting for F1 allocation?

[PiggyPokkyFool]

DD1 was told they should be through at 7.30am and is on wards for 10 so is nervously waiting and hoping it will not be much longer.
Pretty crazy they could be sent anywhere based on a lottery.
Anyone else waiting and fancy keeping me company?

Mumsneedwine will know more than me but my understanding was that contracts were changed in 2016 in England.

And that revisions included improved terms and conditions, including a day a month to do career development stuff. (Not training - I may have drafted my post badly.) Apparently some Trusts don't even require F1s to work nights, though I am not sure how they then staff hospitals overnight, given F1/F2s seem to be very much a staple of cover.

In terms of training a lot of the compulsory stuff seems to be on line, and at least under DDs 2002 contract, is done in your own time. They did however have a training session run by the GMC last week and used it as an opportunity to sound off.

The point is that random allocation is a bit dodgy/unfair if contracts differ. Or if some Deaneries are so overwhelmed that F1/F2s have to be rota'd up to the legal maximum including nights on almost every rotation. (Especially if they then expect these same doctors to then compete against international competition for jobs or training, using extra curricular stuff rather than good work performance.)

Staff are so stretched that there is masses of overtime rota'd in and no one, senior staff or F1/F2s have much time for research or the extra things that get you a training place. What they get instead is lots of very good hands on experience working under supportive seniors

Needmoresleep yet again - and this has been your leitmotif on these various threads - you are making assumptions about the experience of F1s and F2s in deaneries other than your own DD's. While you admittedly appear to know a lot about the latter, you really don't seem to know much at all about the former. So while what you say about her deanery and her experience is bound to be true, it isn't right to make or infer things about other deaneries. It really does seem as though you're simply assuming. The word 'instead' is the tell tale word here. But no actually, other FY medics get plenty of 'hands on experience working under supportive seniors'. They also have to sub on rotas and plenty still make time for research etc etc. You're dogged that it's either/ or but it isn't. You just assume that it is. We're circling back to the earlier threads where senior consultants told you just that. Incidentally whether F1s do nights in London depends on the individual hospital - some have F1s on nights, others don't.

I don't know any F1/2 who have not worked nights and not done unexpected overtime (exception reporting doesn't stop it). Longest shift I've heard off is 22 hours - yes, that's illegal. But if no one turns up then the expectation is you stay. Training is often cancelled as no one go take it. Of you can't go as ward too short staffed.
Current estimates are 20,000 unemployed doctors this August (from F2 to consultant).

The point I was making was that there is random allocation to Deaneries, but contractual terms and conditions are not the same. This seems unfair. And something that anyone going to a Deanery which is using the old contract should be aware of.

If the differences are significant then it will be useful to know. A lot of work needs to be put in to jump straight from F2 to a training post. But this is probably the best way forward, as the other approach of taking an F3 type post (Clinical fellow or similar) in order to have time to prepare, has become much harder since these posts were open up to international competition.

Auchencar, who based on previous posts seems to be a London consultant, will know more, and can perhaps confirm. Are all F1 contracts are the same?. If so I don't have a point to make.

Young Doctors do talk and compare notes and workloads do seem to vary a lot both between Deaneries and then between Trusts. There were some Consultants who were claiming that current F1s had it a lot easier, weekly one-to-one sessions etc. If the contract has not been changed since 2002 then I am not sure why this argument is made.

Life without nights would be a lot easier. It is odd that some hospitals don;'t give their F1s nights whilst others do. What is the thinking?.

Mumsneedwine where did you get the 20,000 figure from. Our DC and many other F2s won't show in the stats as they will have chosen to work abroad rather than go jobless. I worry that, unless something is done, with the expansion of medical schools even more young people will have their dreams dashed. Apparently to reduce the cost of NHS Bank they are creating more junior Clinical Fellow jobs, but as usual, advertising them worldwide, not giving priority to those already in the country. So fewer bank shifts for those trying to sit it out in the UK.

Further off topic, but it seems as if Wes Streeting is attempting a major restructuring of the NHS. It appears that in about 2012 the then SoS for Health gave the NHS greater autonomy. Wes seems to be trying to rein decision making back in. The Head of NHS England, Amanda Pritchard, resigned last week.

Certain London hospitals don't ask F1s to work nights and haven't done for a while. The fact that you don't know and haven't known of any F1 working in these London hospitals doesn't void the fact that that's the system.

Auchencar, who based on previous posts seems to be a London consultant

It's certainly correct that several London consultants and I seemed to be ad idem about a great many things, although a couple were more forthright than I've been.

I worry that, unless something is done, with the expansion of medical schools even more young people will have their dreams dashed

No young person is entitled to realise their dreams simply by virtue of having a dream. They need to a) have the ability required and b) put the legwork in.

But yes, there should be a moratorium on the expansion of medical school with immediate effect.

DDs friend in Kent did not have to work nights.Certainly not during F1. It seemed quite civilised. Her friend in Wales seems to have quite a light schedule. My second hand impression is that F1 jobs vary a lot, perhaps by hospital, Trust or Deanery. And, if I am correct, some even have different contractual terms.

Dumping someone far from where they want to be and then putting them on a less advantageous contract just seems unfair. In the past you could first work towards achieving more points, and if you had low points you knew you might have to accept a less popular Deanery, but at least could choose between them. Whilst overseas graduates were then used to fill remaining vacancies.

So where do you practice? If not, are you in a medically allied field?

Yes there seems to be quite a lot of we had it tough therefore the current generation should as well. As well as a bit of, if we can get doctors in from overseas with ten years experience on the same salary as we would be paying someone who has just finished F2, then we take the former and don't worry that by failing to provide a career path in the UK for a large number of young doctors we are storing up problems for the future.

I guess it depends on where you are. In an area where the service is at breaking point, with Doctors at all levels leaving, DD's experience is that Consultants are very supportive and far less judgemental. They would like the ability to retain their stronger F2s.

I know several F1s who have worked nights in Central London hospitals ?

And I know several central London consultants who are disgusted about the way young doctors are being treated, especially this year. Unable to make jobs for their F2s for the first time.

mumsneedwine given that some Central London hospitals ask F1s to work nights and others don't, that's hardly surprising and adds nothing.

@Needmoresleep @mumsneedwine I'm sure that FY1s and FY2s in at least England, Scotland and Wales (not sure about NI) should now be getting 2 hours per week of SDT time (Self Development Time) for doing non clinical work for their educational development and it should definitely not be used for mandatory training modules/induction stuff. Some of my FYs have been extremely clued up on this and have pushed back when the med ed team were expecting them to do mandatory training in SDT time. The initial plan was for England FYs only but I'm sure it's now been extended.
I have usually asked my FYs to take 4 hours every 2 weeks and take it as a half day, they usually request a Friday afternoon...

Thank you. This is what I thought.

My understanding is that there is unevenness across the four nations, with England and Wales being granted new contracts in about 2015/6 allowing for the 2 hours a week. Scotland F1/F2s were on the old 2002 contract but got an early pay settlement which may have included improved terms, whilst NI have just got a pay rise (they were being paid £5ph less than England) but no improvement in terms. I suspect there are other differences. From what she has said DD only gets one review with the Consultant per placement, whereas elsewhere it is more.

My original point was that random allocation across the four nations is unfair if pay and conditions differ. I really did not mean to cause a derail. My aim was to give early warning to those who had not got the Deanery they wanted to be aware that it is not a level playing field so they can make adjustments.

There is a wider impact. The approval for training is decided nationally. Some F1/F2s are in places where there is a lot of research going on and they are given time to get involved and make the most of it. I would expect the statistics on which Deaneries produce the highest number of F2s to be successful in gaining training places to show a major London bias.

(It would not have mattered if F3 places were available but strong anecdote is that newly qualified doctors simply are not getting entry level job as the overseas competition is too strong.)

It is then really difficult for out of the way places to fill their training places, especially as pay and conditions are not as good. Better to wait until a London job comes up or perhaps something overseas. Where DD is now, 50% of these jobs are vacant, which means Consultants are having to be on call one in four. This in turn is leading to more senior staff leaving, and a wait list for urgent referrals to be rising beyond 2 years. And, unsurprisingly, no time for research.

Perhaps the silver lining is that if more Cambridge PhDs find themselves in places where the NHS is most stretched, they will make a fuss.

@Occasionalcyclist I passed that info onto my DD and I'm afraid she laughed. Says she's lucky if she gets the 1 hour a month that's scheduled - last week she couldn't go as there was no other doctor on the ward. DGH seem to struggle with staffing a lot. What could they do to get the time off ?

Needmoresleep most medics do their PhDs after their foundation years, not prior to them.

mumsneedwine I think you or your DD may possibly be overestimating just how much any F2 carries any hospital.

If the wards are so busy that protected teaching time can repeatedly not be taken, she should be flagging it up to her ES, she should speak to the medical education team at her DGH, she should be giving honest feedback about the lack of opportunities to attend training and SDT when she fills in her GMC training survey as these will show up as red flags and believe me we are definitely pulled up as trainers and departments if we get red flags for lack of educational opportunities for resident doctors.
The med ed team should be noticing that she is failing to attend teaching, she has to attend a minimum number of hours as you know. If it's a recurrent issue with that department it should be addressed, both for your DD and for those doctors coming into the post after her.
I work in a busy DGH and historically at least one department had their training posts removed due to the training not being up to scratch (this includes everything related to training, not just busy clinical exposure). The med ed team at my hospital are excellent I have to say, and they really prioritise the teaching programme and access to teaching for the FYs

It makes no sense to me that an F2 wouldn't know this Occasionalcyclist. It would be very naive or possibly other worldly of an F2 not to know how to approach this sort of problem. They'll all be aware how it could come back to bite them.

Sorry this isn't in line with the discussion currently taking place, but I've just seen that this year 84% got their first choice which is higher than last year. 89% got in their top 2 and 95% in their top 5.

I know it's little consolation for the remaining 5% but just thought I'd share. DD is 4th year so giving her choices some thought currently, as she does fancy a change of location.

Thanks for those figures. It really isn't a random system as I said on an earlier thread (and that only needed saying because it's become a mantra on MN that it is completely random); it simply isn't based on merit (unlike training posts which are, as they should be, obviously).

84% is pretty impressive tbf.

@Pleasestopthebunfight after the chaos of last year the students realised it was better to put less popular deaneries top, so more have ended up with that. But 5% have ended up with 15th choice or below which is sad. Having to move away from your support network is not easy and also expensive. Lots of students now saying it's not worth trying so hard in exams but better to do research or get published.
I expect they'll change the rules again soon to scupper them all again.

@mumsneedwine oh I absolutely agree it’s very hard and I feel for those getting their lower choices.

It might be easier if they knew their rank and could then apply in a strategic way. I think you’re right and many have played it safe - it will be interesting to see how the competition ratios have shifted for each deanery this year. I hope that information is shared soon.

It’s tough - DD is keen to have a change from where she is at Uni as she sees it as a chance to try living somewhere else for 2 years! I know Scotland is on her list (amongst others). She would rather merit played a part still if she had the choice!

https://foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/03/Comparison-of-FP-allocation-results-.pdf

In case anyone who might be interested hasn't seen this document.

https://foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/02/UKFP2025-Comparison-of-FP-allocation-results.pdf

That's better