Four A levels or three?

[NZversusLondon]

Hi, didn’t go to school here so it’s all a bit new to me. My DD is in year eleven and preparing for GcSEs. She’s particularly strong in Maths and is going Further Maths in GCSE. She had been thinking of FM as a fourth option for A level, and was encouraged by her Maths teacher. Now she is having doubts and feels like it may be too much. She thinks it may be wiser to do well in three subjects rather than less well in four. What is the general feeling? I’m inclined to agree with her and don’t want her stressed. On the other hand she is a clever girl with aspirations for a top tier uni - maybe even Oxford - so I don’t want her to miss out. Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

Start with four. Drop to 3 if it is all too much?
Especially if doing FM A level as some/many find it too much.

When I said too much I was really thinking finding FM just too hard, but of course the too much work is true too.

My son is in his 1st year doing Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Chemistry. Some of his fellow students have decided to drop down to 3 subjects and sit Further Maths at AS level. Either because of work load, not needing a full FM Alevel for their intended uni course and some to be able to commit to doing an EPQ next year.

Some students are doing 3 Alevels (Maths, Further Maths + another) and from what my sons say those who are now struggling with FM's will potentially affect their uni options with a low grade in FM and it's too late for them to change to another subject.

I don't think you have anything to loose starting off with 4 and see how your daughter gets on. College seem to monitor students well and liaise with parents if they feel they have taken too much on.

FM opens doors to a lot of careers, like engineering and finance. Nearly all the top unis require it for those careers.

It's tough but a strong Maths student should be able to do it. DS did Maths, FM, Physics and Economics.

Hi, OP -

This is a great question. The answer has become complicated. (I am a former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor.)

Fundamentally your DD’s instinct is correct: it is better to do the best you are capable of in three A levels than to slip in even one in order to do a fourth.

Some degree programmes, like certain programmes at Imperial, will make two offers and one will allow for slippage, but this is relatively rare. Oxford may well make a standard three A offer anyway, but that will only be to applicants who have met its other criteria and are usually predicted (significantly) higher grades.

We are seeing an informal trend towards more and more tiered offers, wherein the first tranche of offers go to a group who greatly exceed the standard entry requirements, then another tranche to a group somewhat less stellar, etc. This board has recently had a number of threads from parents of applicants shut out of programmes for which their PGs made them sound a good match. sometimes those programmes guess wrong, and must take underqualified applicants in August. The system is not working well. But I digress.

Some degree programmes that don’t require FM ‘strongly recommend’ it. Sometimes a subtext here is that if your school offers it, you should be taking it and it counts against you if you do not.

DD could start thinking about programmes that interest her. If she comes across this language, she can email the admissions team for the degree programme explaining her dilemma. The wording will need some thought - your paraphrasing of her dilemma is fine; she just needs to make sure she doesn’t sound the slightest bit like she is looking for an easy path (no reasonable person would take it that way, but one never knows). Of course you can help with the message but it should come from her.

If relevant, a few elite universities will say that Maths + FM + Physics, if taken, is ‘really’ just 2 or 2.5 A levels because of the mutually reinforcing nature of the subjects (if one elects Mechanics insofar as possible). I can see a good case for 2.5.

I realise it may sound like I am implicitly making a case for FM but unless it is recommended for the degree programme that is not my intention. Doing her best and learning thoroughly is most likely to be useful for DD.

@TeenToTwenties idea of starting FM and dropping it is good, but often conscientious YP become invested in the Sunk Cost Fallacy. Would DD find it hard to let go?

Start with 4 and drop down to 3 if it gets too much. As someone with 4 A levels she would be in a minority of applicants statistically against the cohort when applying to university.

Ds found both maths and further maths very easy to understand at A level so the 4 A level workload worked fine for him. Around 1/3 - 1/2 the class will usually drop further maths depending on the class grades from GCSE. They only needed a 7 for further maths which is considered too low but not every child is heading to a top ranking university. Ds achieved a 9 in GCSE maths.

I would ask how maths and further maths is taught at her school. For DS, they teach the cohorts separately so that those doing further maths might cover topics differently to those doing maths.

What subject at uni? FM definitely
helps in first year for many stem subjects

Most schools do 3 plus an EPQ or 4 A levels.

what does she want to study at degree level?

It’s definitely better to get top grades in 3 than lower grades in 4.

That said, further maths is probably 3.5 subjects rather than 4.

Having been there (albeit a while ago) I’d say start that way, and keep a close eye on how things are going.

I dropped my 4th subject half way through the second term of year 13 as it was becoming clear that I was going to bomb it, and it was taking time from ones that mattered that needed a bit of top up time.

Doing the first year of a further maths course probably stands them in better stead for the second year of normal maths. (And is complimentary if doing physics).

Why don't you wait for the GCSE results and then decide?

3

What does she want to do at a top tier university? Maths? If so then you need to explore if not doing FM (if offered at her school) would count against her.

Yes getting 3 excellent A level results is better than having 4 Alevels and dropping grades. However even with 3 excellent A levels if she’s aiming for Oxford the other applicants will also have 3 excellent A levels (minimum), would competing against people with 4 put her at a disadvantage. Maybe nkt the case if she’s not wanting to study maths but could be true if she’s aiming for maths.

Hello,
Maths teacher here, and sixth form tutor. What does your daughter want to study at University?
If Maths and wants top tier university’s (Oxbridge, Warwick, Imperial), must do Further Maths, and extra work alongside to prepare for the Oxford admissions tests. Similar advice for Engineering.
if she wants to do Medicine or something else, then 3 is fine (and not FM)
Let us know so we can offer more suggestions.

For very bright kids, 4 A Levels is manageable. This is especially the case if they are 4 linked subjects, such as maths, further maths, chemistry and physics. DC1 got 4xAstar and a 1st at uni.

Speaking as someone who did 4 (well technically 5 if you add in General Studies) - I would say don’t do it.

My A-Levels were similar - biology, chemistry, physics and maths. I too suffered the sunk costs thing and struggled to give one up.

I hadn’t counted on how much a social life would matter to me at sixth form. I also hadn’t counted on the ramp up of difficultly.

In my opinion, better to focus on 3 and do them really well.

It depends on the subjects, how easy she finds them and what her other commitments are .

I did 4 A levels, maths, physics, chemistry and geography. I didn't find it hard, but I didn't do a huge amount of extra curricular stuff and I found maths and the sciences fairly straightforward, so my homework didn't take much time for them.

In contrast, if you take an A level in an essay subject then it will be time consuming no matter how able you are as a capable student will spend as long on an essay as a less capable one, but just produce a better essay.

The other thing that has change is the introduction of A stars. Presumably getting 3 A stars is better than 4 As. But I wouldn't be sure that having FM counts as a full A level. I was definitely at a disadvantage at university without FM.

Yea do 4. My DS did Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Economics. Maths and FM link well. DS didn't find it "too much"

Great advice above. Doing further maths as a fourth a level is only a good idea if she is really really good at maths. I think colleges will let you do it if you get an 8 for maths gcse but really you should have a 9 (unless extenuating circumstances) and 7- 9 for further maths GCSE if you’ve done it.

And because it’s a pace and intensity issue with FM a level, most places will check in with students after a few weeks and see if anyone wants to drop it. My son’s friend and quite a few others in his class did that - no harm done.

Also, it’s probably only worth it if she wants to go on to study something where it would be useful - def some maths degrees, or some engineering or science ones. V few places will say it’s essential but beware of the ones that say it’s an advantage because if you’re someone who didn’t take it (me!) you will have a hell of a lot of catching up to do.

Maths has no coursework so while it’s more teaching time theres a lot less homework than essay based or arts subjects. FM was like an extra half subject in terms of
lesson time at DC school. My dc did 4 including ones with alot coursework and they still had social lives. It’s doable.

If your DD wants to apply for highly competitive quantitative courses at top universities, FM as a fourth A-level is recommended. Otherwise, not worth it.

DSs collège wouldn't allow four a levels which I think was good as he can concentrate more strongly on those. However he then wanted to apply to Cambridge for engineering and they required further maths. So it has limited him in that respect although I don't think he would've been suited there anyway.

A million years ago now - but everyone in my school who took FM as a fourth A level ended up dropping it and just did 3.

This is no longer the case. It's a lot more competitive, especially for STEM.
DS had 4 A stars in 4 A levels and still didnt get his top two uni choices. Everyone in his cohort took 4.

If she's aiming for a STEM subject at Oxbridge (or maths) then FM is probably a prerequisite if the school offer it.

DS is at Cambridge studying engineering and his offer stated he had to get an A star in further maths...!

He had no big issue doing 4 Levels (and an EPQ). However DS2 dropped his 4th A level after half a term.

DS did economics and in some unis it looks bad if a school offers FM and then someone doesn't take it