Four A levels or three?

[NZversusLondon]

Hi, didn’t go to school here so it’s all a bit new to me. My DD is in year eleven and preparing for GcSEs. She’s particularly strong in Maths and is going Further Maths in GCSE. She had been thinking of FM as a fourth option for A level, and was encouraged by her Maths teacher. Now she is having doubts and feels like it may be too much. She thinks it may be wiser to do well in three subjects rather than less well in four. What is the general feeling? I’m inclined to agree with her and don’t want her stressed. On the other hand she is a clever girl with aspirations for a top tier uni - maybe even Oxford - so I don’t want her to miss out. Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

Here is the PAT one from Mansfield College

https://www.mansfield.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Engineering-Admissions-Feedback-2024-25.pdf

looks like 20ish candidates with a PAT score of 50-54 got a place so your son's friend must have done v well at interview.

...only 2.1 candidates shortlisted per place in Engineering whereas it was 3.2 in maths.

@Lentilweaver right! Sounds tough indeed.

Glad I'm not at school now, then: I was one of only two who stuck out 4 A levels and (predictably enough, in one sense) went to Cambridge. 3 STEM and a language.

My school pointed out I didn't need 4 A levels to go to Cambridge (my offer was AAB) but I liked the challenge and don't regret the academic kudos of successfully completing 4 a levels.

People might not like the question, from independent or state sector?

Just to be the voice of reason here! You do not need FM to do Engineering at lots of universities. Maths and often Physics are the best subjects to have and FM helps. The elite universities will expect FM but many will not. There’s simply not enough Fm candidates to go round! Therefore it’s rarely a requirement.

NRTFT but my Y11 dd1 is in a similar situation.

She is thinking of doing Maths, FM, History and Politics. Her 6th form have said she can drop FM at the end of Y12 and still get the AS level, so that's what she's aiming for if it gets too much.

She is looking at doing Maths or Law at uni, so I think these 4 subjects will provide a good range for that.

About 30 years ago, I did Maths, French and Economics A Levels. Would highly recommend to keep options open 👌

State school.

@Meredusoleil She should make a decision though. FM is not needed for Law. Great for maths though!

Avoid the stress and do 3. Dont overstretch and do 4 and you may be spread thin.

Make a decision about what? What she wants to do at Uni? Still got awhile to think about it.

@Meredusoleil Yes. Obviously but not overloading if she wants Law needs some thinking about. The top law schools won’t be bothered about FM. They will be looking at the grades of the other three which will need to be very high. So for Law, concentrating on 3 makes more sense. It also leaves time for other activities to enhance a law application. So making an earlier decision can help one way or another.

Indeed I’m glad too. Thing is, it just doesn’t matter what we all did way back when. It is much harder now, infinitely more competitive, offers are higher, there are A* in the mix, interviews more rigorous and many more tests beforehand! It’s nice to reminisce but it’s not relevant for kids going through it now, make no mistake!

Lots to think about! Thanks again everyone!

My school - v academic day school - only allows 3 A levels but Further Maths is an exception. Lots of students who do Maths also do FM.

At my DD's school the only way to do Further Maths is to do 4 A-Levels. So that's what she's having to do as she's applying for Maths at competitive universities.

She's in Y13 now and got early offers from all her choices (bar Oxford) - maybe that did have something to do with exceeding their standard entry requirements as @poetryandwine suggested above??

Hi @NZversusLondon !

My daughter was in Year 11 not that long ago and subsequently spent four years at university in Cambridge, including for her Masters degree.

She did four A Levels in the end and chose a humanities degree. She believes doing the grind of four subjects at school helped her at Cambridge.The volume and depth of work at Oxford or Cambridge are such that four A Levels are good preparation, although some undergraduates do well having done only three.

You mention the future possibility of a degree in Maths or Finance or Law. For a Maths degree, Further Maths is essential in substance even if not specified in some courses' entry requirements. Degree Maths is so different from A Level that an absolute minimum prerequisite ought to be FM A Level. My daughter's Economist friends at Cambridge found the Maths challenging even with FM A Level. As for Law, and in general, four solid A Level subjects suggest some ability to cope with a demanding workload and FM is the best evidence of intellectual rigour for Law (as, indeed, for Classics).

Thanks for sharing all the feedback. I think they are very selective/careful with their statistics there. Nearly 1/2 of applicants are “non-EU international”. An odd distinction, given that EU students pay international fees now. Also they don’t then go on to say what proportion of offers are made to these non EU international students. Anyway, I suspect what they are disguising is that the majority of applicants are overseas students and probably the majority of offers too (EU+ non EU). It’s very sad. There are very few places at our top universities for U.K. students - even exceptional ones like your son.

(I’m also sad to see that the proportion of offers for girls is slightly less than the proportion of female applicants. I suspect the interview style discriminates against the cautious, thoughtful girl compared to the confident, gung-ho boy. Stereotypes I know, but there’s lots of research on this and girls in STEM….. When I read Maths at Oxford there were female only colleges so plenty of places for girls with different learning styles….)

If you look at the reports on the PAT entrance test, which is 1/2 maths, they say less than 25% of the top 100 scorers are UK educated. They don’t go on to say what proportion of the next 100 (there are approx 200 places altogether), or what proportion of offers are made to UK students. A couple of years ago there was a typhoon in Hong Kong on the day of the PAT test so they devised a separate specific HK interview pathway - enough of these applicants to warrant a special mention in the admissions report!

For these mathsy subjects students like your son really are competing against the global elite.

I hope your son gets some helpful feedback. He is obviously a brilliant mathematician and will do very well wherever he goes.

@Dido2010 What % of lawyers have FM? Or those a law courses at elite universities? Many FM candidates don’t do essay subjects. Most are stem people and don’t consider law and quite a few wouldn’t be keen on essays. The Cambridge university guide to A level choices suggests maths is good for Law but says FM is suggested for Economics, not Law. No reason not to take FM, but 3 at the highest grades is better than a lower grade in a subject that’s not needed.

The percentage of UK intake of the Maths course is 77.7%. https://www.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxford/AnnualAdmissionsStatisticalReport2024.pdf
It is very difficult for the foreign applicants to get into Oxbridge maths course even for the top young world mathematician.

My DS did economics at the LSE and found the maths horrible (even with FM)

Where are the UK intake % please - I can’t find it on my phone? Wld be interested in seeing other subjects too. Tks

DS is doing 4 after school persuaded him to, he got very good GCSE results and felt he was more than capable.
They suggested that if he did Maths, Computer science and Sociology, universities would be "concerned* by doing maths/tech and then a more "fluffy " subject like sociology. So he went with Economics as well.

He's knackered. Economics and maths are very homework/coursework heavy. So he's up quite late at night. He wants to drop economics but he's excelling at it, so is loath to.

I think he will carry on with it but depending on the 4 subjects look into the homework expectations

If she may want to do maths at a top tier uni, then it's a no brainer - she should start 4 including FM and see how she gets on, and drop one if doing 4 is liable to impact grades.

It generally seems unwise to only start 3 inc FM in case they find it tough, plus it narrows options too early. It really is a shame from this pov that few can do AS nowadays.

When DS was looking at Cambridge in the summer we visited and were told that they now require FM if your sixth form/college offers it, for any Maths/Computing/Economics & several others. This was a new thing for the cohort who will go in September this year. There were several students in the talk who hadn't known this and were having to rethink their uni choices as they'd not taken FM and were at that point towards the end of yr12.