Four A levels or three?

[NZversusLondon]

Hi, didn’t go to school here so it’s all a bit new to me. My DD is in year eleven and preparing for GcSEs. She’s particularly strong in Maths and is going Further Maths in GCSE. She had been thinking of FM as a fourth option for A level, and was encouraged by her Maths teacher. Now she is having doubts and feels like it may be too much. She thinks it may be wiser to do well in three subjects rather than less well in four. What is the general feeling? I’m inclined to agree with her and don’t want her stressed. On the other hand she is a clever girl with aspirations for a top tier uni - maybe even Oxford - so I don’t want her to miss out. Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

The maths is "horrible" (very difficult) on all the top Economics courses. Many Economics courses allow students to choose less quantitative modules as they progress which then allows them to graduate with a good degree but the reality is that the top jobs that Econ graduates desire often require very strong quantitative skills.

Cambridge and LSE explicitly state Sociology is a completely acceptable A level, and other universities will hold the same view, so the school's take on that aspect is not grounded in reality.

It is true that Maths/CS/Sociology is a less common choice (60 sat that combo last summer vs 1400 who sat Maths/CS/Econ) but that does not make it a 'bad' selection. I have a DC whose A level choices were picked by them and only 50 others but it kept the right doors open for them and they thoroughly enjoyed the blend.

FWIW, I think Maths/CS/Sociology is a really interesting mix, especially on the tech side. Well done to your DS for doing well at GCSE and wanting to carry forward numerical and essay subjects in tandem. When considering four A levels, it is important to avoid potential grade dilution.

It might be worth your DS looking up A level subject requirements for unis/courses that he might be interested in. That will help anchor any decision about dropping an A level to the realities of universities' entrance requirements, where the grades across all three subjects can often be more important than the subject of the third A level.

I'm not sure that's new @POTC - DS is in his 3rd year at Cambridge and was told that about FM when he was looking at it as a prospective candidate (4 years ago).

Perhaps just hew to comp Sci then? They made a point of saying it had moved from recommended to required

Cambridge has been ramping up requirements for some years with increasingly heavy hints but, as @POTC says, it has now made FM an absolute requirement.

Ah, maybe that was it (the CompSci bit) because they were very clear that for STEM/Maths stuff you had to take it if your school offered it (and his offer specified an A star in it!).

Any ideas on how art is viewed for Oxbridge/RG group? Obviously useful for courses like architecture, but wondering if it’s seen as a bit of a soft subject?

I presume/hope it’s ok for a fourth A-level!

I would caution against taking Art as a fourth A level because of the workload to produce a portfolio.

If GCSE art is anything to go by I would run a mile. It has been a huge undertaking for my DD.

Art is useful for subjects that need art or where it’s recommended. It’s not “soft” but isn’t essay based or a science so should be a subject that complements a career or university subject where it’s a good idea to have it. In the Cambridge University Guide to Choosing A levels, Art is not mentioned as recommended or relevant for any of their courses. Anyone thinking of an elite university should read this guide @glittergogo . There’s a huge difference between Oxbridge and lower tier RG universities who might not mind because they are not all running competitive courses. The consideration is: is it relevant? As a 4th A level? No, in my view.

@TizerorFizz I agree about Art A-level. TBH there are ways and means of doing Art as an extracurricular activity with a lower workload and a more focussed approach - A-level or IB Art can IMO be overkill for students who already have an artistic practice and media they wish to develop. Examination syllabus requirements don't always allow them the artistic freedom they desire and the syllabuses aren't good on fundamentals like drawing/painting/sculpture.

My DD did art A level and enjoyed it. Loads of freedom within the syllabus. She focused on what she was good at and was well taught. That’s a big bonus. Plus at a boarding school with an open art room beyond lesson time. Art is a great subject.

Studio facilities that can be accessed outside normal school opening hours are obviously a huge bonus to boarding school. Unfortunately the vast majority of children don't have that opportunity. Indeed, access to adequate studio space is a massive issue for many art-inclined young people.

@Ceramiq I do know that. So like drama, music and technology, dc and parents should consider quality of teaching and studio/workshop quality and availability. Past exam results are a clue.

Lack of access to studio space at school is another reason why Art Foundation years can be so valuable.

Thought I would update this as DD is now happily settled in sixth form and taking FM as a fourth. So far, so good. She is really enjoying the course and doesn’t find it particularly difficult, not yet anyway. She is the only girl in her FM class so that’s added impetus to stick with it! But no, she’s delighted so far so long may it last.

With hindsight, DD should have taken FM as a 4th, not necessarily for applying to universities, more to do with the courses she chose to apply to. She was encouraged to do so by her maths teacher but others said it wasn't needed so she took maths, physics and chemistry, gaining straight As. Whilst it didn't affect her being offered at all her five UCAS choices (I might get some phrasing wrong here), she would have benefitted as she is now playing catch-up with further maths because she chose an integrated Masters of mathematics in mathematical physics. Fortunately, she is capable, but it's extra work now.
All the universities she applied to asked for grades ranging from 3As to her insurance of 3Bs, none were interested in an EPQ or enrichments.

Great! FM has opened so many doors for DS. Stick with it.

Thought I would update too. My DC is now at Cambridge but their offer excluded art. Students should bear this in mind re certain subjects if they are aiming for Oxbridge.

Art can obviously can be seen as a bit of a soft subject, and given the offer grades were inevitably really high, it could have been useful having a fourth that ‘counted’, if you see what I mean!

Hi all!

My daughter did her BA and her MPhil at Cambridge. She got to know some Subject and College Admissions Tutors really well.

These selectors told her that the number of A Levels should not be below the number that the best students in your school typically do. 4 academically demanding A Levels can indicate an important ability to cope with the breadth, depth and pace of Cambridge undergraduate studies. In addition, some conditional offers for places are 4 A Level offers; those students would only get in with 4 A Levels, taken in the context of their full application package (Application, Personal Statement, Submitted School Work, School Reference, Entrance Exam Marks and Scripts, Interviews). Their overall application with 3 A Levels would not be strong enough.

My daughter did 4 demanding A Levels, found the fourth draining but is now glad she did it. Her experience is that getting used to the pressure of extra volume of work in Years 12 and 13 can prepare you for Cambridge academic life. She feels the fourth A Level helped to get her an offer, even though this was then a 3 A Level offer.

It's best to call , say, 3 college Admissions Tutors and have the conversation before starting Year 12. Their guidance may help you. They may well say that 'Two A stars and an A are better than 4 As.'

Confused?🤔

Thought I would update. DD chose Maths, Further Maths, Spanish and Economics. It quickly became evident that Economics wasn’t hugely interesting to her so I’ve been cautioning her that that’s the one she needs to focus on. She’s flying in Maths and Spanish. She’s just come in now and declared that she’s dropping economics. This really worries me. Surely she will be at a big disadvantage with FM as a third. Any advice before I lose the plot?

A different perspective from a recent Imperial applications webinar. They were explicit that if their standard offer for the course is say 3 As and you are taking 4 A levels then they will make you an offer of 4 As. If you then get say AAAB they will withdraw the offer, whereas they will accept people who are only taking 3 A levels and who get AAA.

They urged applicants to only take 4 A levels after a realistic discussion with their teachers that they are capable of getting the best results with 4. Otherwise they are better to take 3.

This approach may seem illogical but they were at pains to explain this is what they do and urged students to be cautious of taking 4.

As ever, it is vital to really understand each university/each course’s attitude.

Is she any clearer on what she wants to study? Presumably not economics? (Although some say that the A-level is not a particularly good guide to what the degree is like - and the degrees actually vary quite a bit, particularly on how mathematical they are.)

Maths - the unis will be interested in the maths and FM and probably won't be too bothered about what the third is.
Languages - unis seem to be struggling to recruit students for languages, so might be quite relaxed about what else they've done (although with some courses getting cut, maybe that will change things a little).
Linguistics - something to think about with that combination of A-levels.
Less school-curriculum-based subjects - some will be impressed by FM and/or a language. Usually having two "facilitating" subjects (ones that are useful for many degrees) is sufficient, and I can't see that Maths + Spanish + FM is any worse preparation than, say, Maths + Spanish + Photography.

Can she do an EPQ? That's a chance to add a bit to her application, and if she's applying for a non-school type subject, may be a chance to demonstrate interest.

One thing to note is that, if her languages A-level is like my DD's, the essays are really quite short. That might be an argument for doing an EPQ that involves writing an essay. (DD's longest essay was her UCAS personal statement!)

Following

I do think Imperial's approach is daft, although I am aware of that they do this.
It seem sot punish those excellent and perhaps all-round students who are able to get those 3 A stars but want to broaden their horizon with a 4th A-level.
Honestly, I despair, but I guess they rather like the one-dimensional 'exam bots' (i.e. people who only work, work, work and are quite narrow in focus).