Four A levels or three?

[NZversusLondon]

Hi, didn’t go to school here so it’s all a bit new to me. My DD is in year eleven and preparing for GcSEs. She’s particularly strong in Maths and is going Further Maths in GCSE. She had been thinking of FM as a fourth option for A level, and was encouraged by her Maths teacher. Now she is having doubts and feels like it may be too much. She thinks it may be wiser to do well in three subjects rather than less well in four. What is the general feeling? I’m inclined to agree with her and don’t want her stressed. On the other hand she is a clever girl with aspirations for a top tier uni - maybe even Oxford - so I don’t want her to miss out. Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

I agree - start with 4 and see how it goes. My dd is actually doing quite a broad spread of A-levels (maths, history, French, art!) and has found it fine, although it’s perceived to be harder than if you’re choosing 4 with a lot of overlap (maths, further maths plus sciences).

Bear in mind that places like Oxbridge and Imperial will expect FM for degrees like engineering, and will offer on 4, not 3…

Thanks so much. Really appreciate so many of you taking the time to reply so thoughtfully.
As to what she wants to study, she’s not entirely sure yet. Her current three subjects are Maths, Economics and Spanish. She’s thinking something maths or finance related or perhaps Law.

For maths or finance or economics, the top unis will say FM is recommended. That means you are unlikely to get in without FM. And even if you do, students without FM may struggle with uni work.
For law, she won't need FM.

If your DD is doing Further Maths GCSE and really enjoys Maths, she is a strong contender for doing FM at A level. Remember, once you decide not to do FM at the outset, there is no going back. If you start FM, there is at least the option to drop it later on.

I have DC who have taken FM as a fourth A level and mixed with other science and humanity A levels. They 'only' got 8s at GCSE Maths and their comp did not offer Further Maths GCSE. They went on the get As in FM and very strong grades in their other subjects. So we need to be careful not to be overly prescriptive and say 'only take FM if you get a 9 in GCSE Maths unless extenuating circumstances' as cited by a PP.

For what it is worth, my DC grew into their Maths generally as A levels progressed and thoroughly enjoyed the subject. Strictly speaking, FM was not 'necessary' for their next steps but really developed their problem solving skills and has opened doors to unanticipated opportunities subsequently.

Yes, doing four A levels is hard work but mine survived (and had paid employment and other activities alongside) because they really engaged with their subjects and became very organised, a skill worth developing if your DD has aspirations for very competitive university courses.

It really depends on the other A levels and possible degree.

Ds1 did maths, further maths, physics and chemistry. The first three work incredibly well together and as there is so much overlap it isn't as hard as doing 4 completely different subjects. He is also studying maths at uni so having further maths has been an advantage.

From my understanding doing further maths as a fourth A'level can be useful for any maths related degree but not a necessity as not all schools offer it

At my ds's school all further maths students sat the AS level in year 1 and depending on how they did they then had the option of carrying it on or stopping.

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If a Maths based subject at a good university (let’s use Russell Group + for shorthand) is a possibility, FM becomes important. The top programmes require it: the next group recommend it, many with the implication I discussed above.

The able student who wants to do a degree which is maths related at a top tier uni, should be able to do 4 subjects,including FM without too much difficulty. People getting offers from top tier places, will expect to have an offer including A and probably A star in FM.

A student doing FM at GCSE, who is pretty much a dead cert for a 9 at GCSE maths and who is doing well at FM GCSE should be able to cope. Bearing in mind that the courses you’ve mentioned at uni are highly competitive and hard work, applicants need to be able to cope with workload and levels of stress too.

So, is your DD just a bit anxious and lacking in confidence that she ought to have but actually very able, or is she just a solid mathematician and student?

Askher teachers for advice. They will be honest. And as others say, starting with 4 and dropping FM is an option. A student who does that though, won’t be applying to top tier unis for maths related degrees, but then most won’t be capable of those degrees. No shame in that.

For the typical A Level student and for most not doing a maths related degree, doing 3 is generally better. If FM doesn’t feel a struggle and take up lots of time which detracts from other subjects, 4 is fine. For others, ending up with an A or 2 amongst their results means they would have been better with just 3 in many ways.

And for anyone considering 4 without the Maths/FM combo, advice is strongly to to do it. 4 absolutely won’t be needed and students stretch themselves too thin. It’s common for the candidate who could have got 3 x A star to just end up with one and a few As.

A really great post from @WombatChocolate , but the wording of the final paragraph might be slightly confusing. Clearly she is advocating for 3 subjects rather than 4 when FM is not amongst them.

DS did three A levels (his DS's did the four As then dropped one for A2)
He was not kept busy enough in year 12 and began to coast so end of year grades dropped

Sorry. Should have said advice is NOT to do it. Missed out the crucial word of ‘not’!

Sometimes students of humanities and languages (not maths and FM) start with 4. Some schools or colleges allow this with the expectation that one will quickly be dropped. It just allows students to try 4 first to see which they like best. However, some then find it difficult to drop one. And there are always some students who feel (or their parents feel) that doing 4 willbe impressive on UCAS and secure more offers. What they fail to realise, is that in most cases, the overall results will be less impressive as 3 not 4 willbe be focused on….and a perfect set of results (3) will generally be seen as better than 4 less than perfect results. 4 humanities/languages is more work than doing 4 to include Maths/FM. Many places will teach Maths/FM in less than the time for 2 A Levels and the able mathematician is able to get to grips with A Level maths quickly and easily and focus more on the FM. With 4 distinct other subjects, this is not the case. Perhaps the only even vaguely related similar situation would be if one A Levels is in a native language which is spoken and written to a high standard already and the student is a natural linguist. Even then, no need for 4.

Usally the able mathematician is chomping at the bit to get going on FM and not daunted by it. But some students, maybe girls in particular can be lacking confidence in considerable abilities. That’s why honest advice from a teacher, especially an experienced teacher who has seen cohorts of students go through FM is useful.

Interesting and found similar posts upthread.
Can I ask if your DS did any extracurricular sports etc?

Not sports. But he did other stuff, ran and participated in school societies. And did lots of supercurricular stuff as well.

My ds did 4 a levels including further maths. He was very hard working in his studies and enjoyed the challenge. He also was an Explorer Scout and had a part time job. The amount of focus, determination and studying he did for his A levels has meant that he can continue that with his challenging maths degree.

I would say do all four if your DC wants to do Maths at Uni. As others have posted my year 13 DC needed FM for the unis he applied to.
However, many sat AS in it and then dropped it. One student got a FM AS D grade and had an offer from Oxford for Engineering.

The offer at Oxford would have been more contingent on his performance on the aptitude test. If he had been borderline on that, the D might have meant he wasn't interviewed, but it won't matter much if he did well on the PAT.

DD's 6th form college set up for Maths& FM students to do Maths A level in one year and FM the following year as it makes less sense to take them alongside each other and more to run consecutively. It's hard work. Her exceptionally clever friend started off doing 4 and dropped one quite quickly.
Another of her friends has been offered a place at Oxford with 3 A levels
You don't need 4. It fills all of your timetable - leaving less room for independent study/homework/down time.

If she wants to do maths, Engineering, computer science or economics she will likely need FM. Law - concentrate on the other 3. Good advice given above!

It really depends on the subject they want to take at university…

You’d have thought so but the student got less than 51on the PAT. My DC got 89 on the MAT with predicted 4A*s but rejected.

Gosh, did your DC get an interview?

The PAT and the MAT do have different boundaries.

Yes, he felt they went very well. He has 12 9s at GCSE and will achieve his predicted grades at A Level. His school has requested feedback but when you look at the graph they have released there are many in his position.

Gosh that must feel tough. Did the other person apply to the exact same course? And with similar A-levels and GCSEs?

No, the other person applied for Engineering.

This is the graph we were sent with his score.
Waiting for feedback on the interviews.

Graph link
https://search.app/?link=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emaths%2Eox%2Eac%2Euk%2Fsystem%2Ffiles%2Fattachments%2FFeedback%25202024%2Epdf&utm_campaign=57165%2Dor%2Digacx%2Dweb%2Dshrbtn%2Diga%2Dsharing&utm_source=igadl%2Cigatpdl%2Csh%2Fx%2Fgs%2Fm2%2F5