Poor English -foreign students

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mzdejg1d3o

I have to confess I am seeing the end result of this problem with M.Sc. students entering the workforce with a level of English such that academic reports require significant edits to make them acceptable.

The employees are incredibly intelligent especially mathematically but the poor English is something that requires resource to address and you simply can't bring the subject up in a PDR without accusations of racism. I can't simply say as a development objective to improve Englsih as there isn't time in a demanding career and it becomes increasingly difficult to learn foreign languages as you age.

I am glad this subject is being raised as it does undermine HE institutions in my opinion.

I’m adding “excellent communication skills” to all my JDs, and filtering them out at interview.

There are some unique situations where language skills don’t matter, but a lot of work has a collaborative element. If they cannot keep pace with the team, or work across teams, they aren’t fit for the roles that I have.

I posted about this being the experience of a relative who is a lecturer on masters degree courses a few months ago, and was told my relative was completely wrong and a racist to boot.

I wish I could find the threads, I would love to tag that poster.

It's nothing new. 25 years ago one of my third year modules was also something some of the taught masters students took. Nearly all the masters students were overseas students. Group work was impossible as they didn't have the language skills.

Master's degrees at UK universities are often referred to as "cash cow" programs in many countries, primarily seen as tools for universities to generate revenue. Many programs have over 90% international students. For instance, some music programs may have over 30 students, with only two being non-Chinese.

When I started my Ph D studies there were several overseas students in the group. They could cope with reading complex research papers in English but were lost when it came to fast moving discussions in seminar groups. Having worked in a university, I believe that the standard in English that is required of overseas students is too low. But then our universities need their money.,

We had issue at undergrad level. No way have few actually passed IELTS to required level. There are many paid for results going on in many countries and it shows. I was put in group works with some of them few times and it was an absolute torture to a point I had to speak to the lecturers.

I agree completely with your conclusions, OP.

I think the causes are complex. Most Overseas applicants use an IELTs result to satisfy their English qualification and IMO almost every degree programme in the land accepts too low an IELTS result. I do believe there is some fraud, but until standards become more meaningful it will be impossible to disentangle this mess.

No one is going to raise standards while we are running our universities on the dosh provided by Overseas students. It is an equal issue at UG level. Students have spoken with me about this, both native speakers and Overseas students who could not cope. The situation isn’t fair to anyone.

Adding ‘excellent communications skills’ to job descriptions is a great idea, @Sibilantseamstress

I know a young British-Chinese man fluent in Mandarin who turned down a great job in a tech firm where he interned. The reason is that he was placed in a group where Mandarin was the main language in use. Fine for him, but he spent much of his time translating for the two group members who did not speak it. Absent his presence, those employees had to attend group meetings in Mandarin where their manager would pause now and again to give a shaky summary for them. People weren’t actively exclusionary or rude, and they would speak English insofar as they could with these colleagues in personal conversations.

No one, but no one, wanted to know. This is a very productive group in a company we would all know. (In the higher levels of tech, ‘you should go to HR’ is not necessarily the best advice for one’s career. And it isn’t quite clear what the legal position is. Although I think the the whole thing is pretty bad)

DD says there are several people on her degree course with very poor English which causes some problems. Additionally there is one Lab tutor who nobody can understand due to his very strong accent and poor English but the DC are unwilling to report it for fear of being accused of racism.

What about the experience of native students in their native language? How will we make educational leaps and strides if people can’t even talk to each other?

I went to our local baby centre for a weigh in and of about 20 women I was the only english speaker and no-one spoke to me, just to their own. It was really isolating at a time when I could just do with a few low stakes minutes of mum chat. That felt bad enough, can’t imagine what it’s like to be a student and be isolated and afraid of speaking up incase you're labeled racist. No wonder no one wants to debate things in higher education anymore.

You are so right. I don’t think it is racism when Home students join an MSc course to find they are part of a tiny minority, and cannot communicate meaningfully with the majority

I agree with all the comments above as we now have someone on a graduate training scheme where written report work often has grammatical anomalies , wrong use of tense etc. I correct the errors as it is the correct thing to do but we are faced with possibly having to do this for his entire career unless the employee significantly increases mastery of the English language in his early 30s while pursuing a demanding career.

Our supporting professional body passes the problem back to us and as I work in the NHS there is a tacit assumption we can accommodate poor English to being a heavy international recruiter.

How can you mark someone objectively on presentational skills when the English is stilted to the point communication isn't effective? Of course I give a high mark as I don't want to embroiled in any accusations of discrimination.....it's not worth it

I have a different experience - the three people in my team who are Indian and have come to the UK for masters all have excellent English. The only occasional issue is their written English is quite formal.

One unfair issue is that we penalise British students at GCSE if their English examination is poor and it can have an impact on their life chances yet we do not look at English with the same scrutiny at undergraduate/postgraduate level where criticism can be construed as racism. You simply cannot say to someone from abroad that there is English is poor without leaving yourself open to accusations of bigotry. We are not talking about accent but use of grammar and syntax which does not fully communicate ideas

Obviously foreigners can have an have excellent grasp of English but where this is not the case it does leave you in a quandary

It goes beyond HE. My OH has long term cancer and his haematologist is a lovely Far Eastern woman, but her English is atrocious. She's consultant level, and middle aged, so presumably has lived/worked in the UK for many years. He's had cancer for five years now and either sees or speaks to her by phone every month. So many times he just can't get her to understand his side-effects, complications, etc. Even when he says something like his feet are tingling, she doesn't seem to understand what tingling means so he has to find other words to try to describe it. Same when he asks a question, I genuinely don't think she understands the question as 9 times out of 10, she'll just parrot off some generic comments that may or may not be relevant. It's hard because like I say, she's a lovely woman, but sometimes we feel as if his treatment/care is compromised due to lack of understanding/communication between them. Sometimes when he asks something, she'll just say some generic response, and then at the next meeting/phone call, she'll just randomly provide a more detailed/specific answer to what he asked the previous time. We often wonder if she's recording the conversation and getting someone else to review/transcribe it in a format she can better understand and then respond properly the month later. We know that if he raises the problems with anyone, the first response will be the racist cry but it's really not the case - the problem is lack of communication which can be life threatening for people with cancer on life-long chemotherapy drugs!

Many years ago, I studied Russian in a Moscow language institute. (I was there for 5 months as part of my year abroad.)

In Moscow there were students from various Soviet spheres of influence also studying many other subjects. The system that they had was that foreigners who were studying in various of the colleges in Moscow were required to undertake an intensive 1 yr foundation course in Russian before they were allowed to study their chosen subject. (Those of us merely learning Russian were in a slightly different position - we'd already studied it for two years back home and were there to improve.)

Perhaps a similar system needs to be put in place here. Mind you, I have no illusions: the Soviets were prepared to make the funding available for political reasons. Funding here would have to be provided by the students, I presume.

How can you mark someone objectively on presentational skills when the English is stilted to the point communication isn't effective? Of course I give a high mark as I don't want to embroiled in any accusations of discrimination.....it's not worth it

Easy. If the ability to communicate to an English speaking audience is being assessed and they are unable to do so effectively, you give them a poor mark and explain exactly why in the feedback.

I have no qualms in suggesting that a student take steps to improve their English or recommending them for in-sessional English language workshops.

What happens when they complain and play the racism card?? You need management to back you up, and if you don't feel confident that they will, then you're basically signing your own resignation!

It feels like it needs to be addressed early on in their academic journey in the UK. It does feel like if they're doing maths then they can pass the course without being able to communicate in English sufficiently. I interviewed a load of international students, they were nearly all from China, studying maths and sciences. I'd say more than half did not have sufficient English to participate meaningfully in the interview, if at all.
Why not include modules of English for those who require it?

I agree. But then again, DD has a lecturer who is near impossible to understand, so it's not just the students :(

I don't see how it is racist to state a fact - "This person's English is not good enough for the course". That has nothing to do with the colour of their skin and everything to do with their language skills (or lack thereof). If someone said about me that my French was not advanced enough for me to cope with a job in France that would be absolutely correct - nothing racist about it.

If they have been economical with the truth with regard to their language skills when they sign up, they haven’t got a leg to stand on. As tutors we are asked to identify new students who are poor in English and recommend them for extra tuition. They can do this themselves, but priority is given to students who are recommended.

Pre-sessional English courses are also available to any student with an offer.

I agree. But then again, DD has a lecturer who is near impossible to understand, so it's not just the students :(

This is sometimes a problem and in my experience of SSLC meetings, students are not shy in complaining.

@mids2019 My DH has had employees from many countries. All have been very competent engineers with great English. They interview with spoken English in mind as employees must converse with team members as well as clients. A small number can stay tucked up in a room with a computer but team working is essential. Therefore interviews are set up to reflect this. It’s not racist for a coming to agree an applicant doesn’t need their needs when they have clearly asked for competence in spoken and written English. Consultants don’t want reports going out littered with grammatical errors. DH has not found international employees lacking though but they are clear about what their standards are.

I work at a university and we depend heavily on foreign students for our income. We have a real issue with Chinese students not being able to speak English. They always return back to China as soon as they've finished their courses - but their learning (and teaching them) is a real struggle!

Because it can be said to be discriminatory. We do provide optional English modules. Take up is low.

This is a great appproach, @TizerorFizz . If the majority if employers did this and word got around it would make a difference.